Can Unregenerate Man "Do" any Righteous Thing?

Answer- Your analogy fails because you are comparing physical life to spiritual life. You are correct that a baby must be alive before it can breathe. And we know that a physically dead person can perform no function whatsoever. However, the scriptures show a spiritually dead person can perform many functions while dead.

Question- After Adam and Eve sinned and were spiritually dead in this sin, were they able to come to God when he called them?

 

Yes, I am. I have the benefit of an entire canon of New Testament scripture to draw upon plus the words of Christ. Nicodemus was handicapped with regard to source material to draw upon. You won't find the term "born again" in the Old Testament, for example.

 

Like the 3,000 in Acts 2. Like the Philipian jailer. Like the eunuch in Acts 8. BTW, what was the unregenerate Ethiopian Eunuch doing reading scripture on his own. Was that SEEKING GOD?

 

What I am going to do is box in with lines the things I would like you to respond to. You may do the same and I will respond to each section you set off with lines.
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All I am saying is that the phrase "that believing you might have life" does not necessitate that believing PRECEDES life. It is simply not there.
It ONLY necessitates that believing is necessary for the maintenance of life.
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The voice that God used was audible. There is nothing about the fall that keeps men from being able to hear and respond to AUDIBLE noises that God makes. They heard God with their physical ears. They did not hear him with their dead spirit.

However, it is the voice of God spiritually that gives spiritual life and raises the spiritually dead. The way that God regenerates a dead sinner is by calling him- that spiritual call quickens the dead spirit of the sinner so that he CAN come just as the physical voice of Christ quickened the physical body of Lazarus so that he could come.
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That any of these had an appetite for the things of God indicates regeneration.

Listen to this verse very carefully.

"The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God... NEITHER CAN HE..." I Corinthians 2:14

The Gospel is certainly a "thing of the Spirit of God" and the natural man simply CANNOT receive it.

He MUST become something more than natural if he is to receive it.

Regeneration makes him spiritual.

 

This was a response to your easy to understand argument.

According to Jesus, Nicodemus should have understood.

15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand,

 

Answer- Your position is easily shown error. Jesus said he that believeth not shall not see life. This shows believeing is necessary to receive life. Jesus also said that if you do not believe I am he, ye shall die in your sins. This shows a person remains dead in sins until they believe.

Question- You said God's call regenerated Adam and Eve, where does it say that in scripture?

 

We;re not talking about that verse yet. We are talking about John 20:31. Let's take them one at a time. If you want to deal with that verse we will. Bring it up in your next post and I will address it.

Suffice it to say that it is clear that John 20:31 does not demand that belief precede regeneration. It could say it, but it does not NECESSARILY say it- agreed?
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I did not say that God's call regenerated Adam and Eve. I said the particular call that God sent forth to Adam and Eve was AUDIBLE not internal.

There was nothing about the fall that hindered their physical ears from being able to hear sounds that God made audibly and respond physically.

The fall affects the SPIRIT of man so that he is DEAD spiritually. It did not immediately KILL Adam physically
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Continually saying this does not prove it.

The gospel is the good news, it's not a "thing" of the spirit. The gospel is the good news which is to be for all people (Luke 2), not just regenerated ones. I suppose you will next tell me that the shepherds tending their flocks on the day Jesus was born had to be regenerated so they could be enabled to go to the manger and see the baby.

1 Cor. 2:14 refers to spiritual truths that unsaved people cannot understand. Once we receive the Holy Spirit we can discern doctrine and know more about the things God gives us (v. 12)

 

Answer- I disagree with your view of John 20:31, it clearly says AND THAT BELIEVEING YE MIGHT HAVE LIFE. This clearly shows you must believe to have life.

Question- Did the Philipian jailer seek to know how to be saved before or after he believed on Jesus?

 

The Gospel is most certainly something of the Spirit of God. The Gospel is the EXACT thing that Paul is talking about in I Corinthians 2 when he said the natural man cannot receive it.

In chapter 2 Paul is talking about his spirit anointed message that it was not given in the power of the flesh but in the power of the Spirit.

He calls it in verse 1- the testimony of God

In verse 2 he speaks of the subject matter that singularly consumed his message- Jesus Christ and him crucified.

In verse 4 still talking about that same Gospel message he tells them his proclamation of it was not in enticing words of man's wisdom but in power and demonstration of the Spirit.

This message is called the wisdom of God in verses, 6, 7 and 8.

He follows this same topic through verse 13 where he says, "Which things we also speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth, comparing spiritual things with spiritual"

Still talking about the Gospel, the testimony of God, Jesus Christ and him crucified, the wisdom of God he says in verse 14

"The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him; NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM, because they are spiritually discerned."

This is the Gospel which natural man CANNOT know nor receive.

Paul had already said this very thing earlier using the same language in 1:18

It is PLAINLY the Gospel of the cross, Jesus Christ and him crucified which is the wisdom of God that Paul is saying that the natural man CANNOT receive.

To deny this is plain stubbornness dear brother.

 

That it clearly says that faith is necessary for the maintenance of life is not a matter of dispute. What it does NOT say is that faith PRECEDES life.

That verse does not NECESSARILY say that. You need to be honest and admit that.

I am agreeing with you that faith is necessary for life in the same way that breath is necessary for life. But breath nor faith came before life.
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He sought to know how to be saved BEFORE he believed in Jesus.

That he sought this indicates a spiritual work going on within him because the natural man receiveth NOT the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him, neither CAN HE know them for they are spiritually discerned.

 

Salvation is the same throughout the Bible. Evidence for that is given by Paul in the example of Abraham. See the fourth chapter of Romans.

Is there any Biblical evidence that Abraham was "regenerated"? NO. At least, not in the way that you are defining it. But, by faith, righteousness was imputed unto him. He was justified in the sight of God, and it was by faith. Salvation/regeneration come at the same time as they did with Abraham. A study of Romans 4 gives clear evidence of that.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (Romans 4:3)
--no regeneration, as per your definition; only imputed righteousness because he believed God.

The same way of salvation is taught in the NT
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (Romans 5:1)

Where does faith come from?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17)

How is one born again?
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23)

What is the role of the Holy Spirit?
And he, when he is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: (John 16:8) ASV

The Bible does not speak of pre-salvation regeneration. It speaks of the Holy Spirit bringing conviction on a person as that person hears the Word of God, believes in its message and is saved as a result of his belief in that message (the saving grace of Christ).

 

Unregenerate man can do nothing righteous on his own since he is not related to God and only that which is done towards God is righteous. In the case of turning to God he is being enlightened by the Spirit and the move towards God is not independent of God.

 

But in what way was "giving their kingdom to the beast" a righteous act? Certainly if fulfilled God's purpose, but then so did the action of Joseph's brothers when they sold him to the slave traders. Joseph said to them years later, in Genesis 50.20:

"But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive."
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It's the same with Pharaoh, of whom we read in Exodus 10.20:

But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.
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Supremely, we see it in the crucifixion of Jesus. Peter said to the Jews in Acts 2.23:

"Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death."
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Were Joseph's brothers doing a righteous thing when he threw him into that pit, then sold him to traders? Was Pharaoh doing a righteous thing when he refused to let the children of Israel go? Were the Jews doing a righteous thing when they crucified Jesus Christ? The answer in each case must surely be in the negative.

But in each case, it was God's will that was brought about.

 

Answer- I am being perfectly honest, it does not say, "and that believeing ye might KEEP life", it says, "and that believeing ye might HAVE life". It is saying you must believe to have life.

Question- When the Philipian jailer burst in and asked how to be saved, but before he actually believed on Jesus, at this moment was he still spiritually dead in sins?

 

Excellent DHK !!!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

It does not have to say "ye might KEEP life" to mean it any more than it has to say "that breathing ye might KEEP life" to mean it. It can say "that breathing ye might have life" and we still understand perfectly that breathing is necessary to sustain life even though life existed before breathing. Just so, it can say "that believing ye might have life" and we still understand perfectly that believing is necessary to sustain life even though life existed before believing.

There are too many verses that indicate that it requires spiritual life to believe for that passage to be interpreted any other way.
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No. The Philipian jailer was still lost but God had given him a new heart whereby he sought the Lord to be saved. God had replaced his stony heart with a heart of flesh.

Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

This is necessary if ANY are to be saved.
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And he believed in Jehovah; and he reckoned it to him for righteousness. Gen 15:6

Was it Abraham's belief that made him righteous, or did his belief show him to be righteous?

Was it an unrighteous man, that Jehovah called out of Mesopotamia years earlier, appeared to several times, and announced blessings upon? I think not.

Was it an unregenerate man that built an altar to Jehovah at Shechem years earlier? I think not.

Was it to a dead alien sinner that Melchizedek pronounced 'Blessed be Abram of God Most High' years earlier? I think not.

Abraham's faith showed him to be righteous; it did not make him righteous. YES, there is much biblical evidence that Abraham was regenerated EXACTLY in the sense that Luke is defining it.

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21

This passage is frequently mis applied. The context of the chapter is concerning Israel after the flesh. Dare to take it to the next verse:

But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world. Ro 10:18

If you're making this the written word then how is your stance any different than that of the Jews?:

Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me; Jn 5:39

The scriptures do not convey eternal life, they bear witness of Christ. Paul reiterates this here:

..........our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Tim 1:10

The gospel does not impart life and immortality, it tells of it. And those that believe the gospel show by their faith that they have been born from above:

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

 

The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Jn 3:8

And take note, He blows where HE wills. Christ is the ONLY MEDIATOR between God and man. There is no preacher or man made institution that conveys that Life Giving Spirit.

Another frequently mis applied passage, by Cal & Arm alike. It requires the 'Preterist Modifier' to get the proper sense of it:

When Christ commissioned the twelve apostles He foretold them:
But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to councils, and in their synagogues they will scourge you; yea and before governors and kings shall ye be brought for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, be not anxious how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you. Mt 10:17-20

In the Olivet Discourse He foretold them:
But before all these things, they shall lay their hands on you, and shall persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for my name`s sake. It shall turn out unto you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate beforehand how to answer: for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to withstand or to gainsay. Lk 21:12-15

In the Farewell Discourse He foretold them:
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God.....And he, when he [the Comforter] is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because I go to the Father, and ye behold me no more; of judgment, because the prince of this world hath been judged. Jn 16:2, 8-11

The 'world' meant here is not the human race in general. This is the 'world' that Christ is referring to:
Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing. Jn 18:20.

To paraphrase the 8th verse:
When the Spirit comes, He will convict the Jews of the judicial murder of Christ, and will declare Christ to be righteous in that God has raised Him from the dead, and will pass judgment upon this generation.

Read, listen, hear the Spirit convict the apostate ecclesiastical system of the Jews, through the testimony of His witnesses, of the murder of the Righteous One, and declare Him indeed to be righteous. Take note, in all these examples given, of the redundancy of the message from the Comforter to the Jews; YOU KILLED HIM, BUT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.

Acts 2:
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spake forth unto them, saying, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and give ear unto my words.
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know;
23 him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay:
24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.

Acts 3:
12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this man? or why fasten ye your eyes on us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made him to walk?
13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him.14 But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you,
15 and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.

Acts 4:
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders,
9 if we this day are examined concerning a good deed done to an impotent man, by what means this man is made whole;
10 be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even in him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Acts 5:
27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them,
28 saying, We strictly charged you not to teach in this name: and behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man`s blood upon us.
29 But Peter and the apostles answered and said, We must obey God rather than men.
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree.
31 Him did God exalt with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins.
32 And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 6:
8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, wrought great wonders and signs among the people.
9 But there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen.
10 And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake.
15 And all that sat in the council, fastening their eyes on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel.

Acts 7:
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers;
53 ye who received the law as it was ordained by angels, and kept it not.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7

Acts 10:
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree.
40 Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest,
41 not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead.

Acts 13:
16 And Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken:
27 For they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people.

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...who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 1 Peter 2:23