Can Warren Jeff be prosecuted in any State Court?

Discussion in '2006 Archive' started by stanleyg, Sep 1, 2006.

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Can Warren Jeffs be legally prosecuted in State Court for charges of heresy?

  1. Yes

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  2. No

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  1. stanleyg

    stanleyg
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    Can Public Minister Warren Jeffs be legally prosecuted in any State Court for charges that constitute heresy against Christianity?

    Heresy

    Heresy, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, is a "theological or religious opinion or doctrine maintained in opposition, or held to be contrary, to the Catholic or Orthodox doctrine of the Christian Church.

    Polygamy

    The term polygamy is used in related ways in social anthropology and sociobiology and sociology. In social anthropology, polygamy is the practice of marriage to more than one spouse simultaneously (as opposed to monogamy where each person has only one spouse at a time).

    Religious Persecution

    Religious persecution is the persecution of individuals within a group in the struggle to maintain their religious identity.

    Salem Witch Trial

    The Salem witch trials, which began in 1692, resulted in a number of convictions and executions for witchcraft in both Salem Village and Salem Town Massachusetts. It was the result of factinal infighting and Puritan witch hysteria which lead to the death of 20 people and the imprisonment of scores more.Salem Witch Trial

    Separation of Church & State

    The separation of church and state is a political doctrine which states that the institution of the state or national government should be kept separate from those of religious institutions.

    Rule of Law

    The rule of law is the principle that government authority is legitametly exercised onlly in accordance with written, publicly disclosed laws adopted and enforced in accordance with established procedure.

    Due Process

    In United States law, due process is the principle that the government must respect all of a person's legal rights instead of just some or most of those legal rights when the government deprives a person of life, liberty, or property.

    Agency Law

    Agency is an area of Commercial law dealing with a contractual or quasi-contractual tripartite set of relationships when an Agent is authorised to act on behalf of another (called the Principal) to create a legal relationship with a Third Party.
     
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    He is not being prosecuted for heresy against Christianity. He is being prosecuted for the violation of state law. So yes, he can and should be prosecuted.
     
  3. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    No. I don't think there are any laws in these United States against heresy.
    If there were, most of us in this Baptist Board would have charged each other already.
    :rolleyes:
     
  4. El_Guero

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    Amen!

    He is not on trial for worshiping smith, satan, and other gods.

    He is on trial for statutory rape under the guise of religion . . . .

    So the trial revolves around age of consent.

     
  5. DeeJay

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    There is no law in the United States against heresy.

    He is being charged in Utah with rape, forcable rape of a minor, and participating in the rape of a minor. He is being charged in Arizona with statutory rape and he is being charged in federal court with doing all of the above while crossing state lines.

    Utah gets him first :thumbs:
     
  6. hill

    hill
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    There can be no law indicting one for heresy against the state, as the state cannot admit that liberalism is its chosen religion.
     
  7. Jack Matthews

    Jack Matthews
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    He can't be prosecuted for heresy.

    As to what the state of Utah will do, that could go either way. Depending on where the trial is held, the population of the area could be anywhere from 70% to 95% Mormon. Among that population is a large group of people who hold to various fundamentalist elements of Mormonism and are sympathetic to the Jeffs cult in various ways. Hung juries are not unlikely, with one or two people being holdouts, particularly if the trial is held in the superior court that covers the southern part of the state.

    On the other hand, when a particular religious group dominates the population like Mormons do in Utah, they can usually manipulate the court system to go their way. LDS officials in Salt Lake City wouldn't mind using Jeffs as a highly public example to distance themselves from the bad publicity that has come out of all of this. I don't think either Utah or Arizona apply the death penalty for rape cases involving a minor, but he could get consecutive sentences that would keep him in prison for the rest of his life.
     
  8. DeeJay

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    I am amazed at the way this state is viewed by others. It is kind of funny.

    There are very very few people sympethetic to Jeffs here. And the people who are are all in the communes and poligamist comunities. They have no chance of being on a Jury.

    You are right the jury will be around %70 LDS but that is the main streem church no FLDS will be on the jury Shurtleff will not let that happen. Main streem mormons are with there chruch in wanting to distance themself from their past that is reprisented in the FLDS and RLDS churches. They will be harder on Jeffs then an all Catholic or all Baptist jury would be. A
    %100 LDS jury would convict Jeffs with out one decenting vote.

    Jeffs is getting no sympathy from the mainstreem LDS people in this state. Only in his commune is he liked.

    No death penalty for rape, you are right but he will do time.
     
  9. DeeJay

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  10. Jack Matthews

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    The LDS church's own sources say there are an estimated 350,000 members of various "fundamentalist" LDS groups living in Utah alone. According to information provided by Dave Hunt in The God Makers, while they are generally isolated and separate from each other, they do hold some of the fundamental principles of Mormonism from the Joseph Smith/Brigham Young era in common, among them, carrying out blood atonements and practicing polygamy.

    Just out of curiousity, what would keep a member of a fundamentalist Mormon splinter group who might be sympathetic to Jeffs, or who simply wants to see the state lose its case, from getting on a jury? Perhaps some of these people don't register to vote, but they do own property that is registered, and they do have driver's licenses. In Utah, the venue of the case will be extrememly important. My understanding is that he will go to trial in St. George, in Utah's southwesternmost county, an area that is thickly populated with various FLDS sects and groups. It only takes one juror to cause a mistrial. How is it that members of any FLDS group, or even Jeffs group, would be kept off a jury?
     
  11. DeeJay

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    Your first paragraph is correct.

    What would keep a FLDS or RLDS member off the jury?

    Well you touched part of it in your first post.

    The mainstream LDS dont manipulate Utah goverment, they run it outright. The AG Mark Shurtliff consults them openly before doing anything. LDS people and church want to be tough on poligamy so they can loose the reputation of being a poligamist church. They want the country to know they are tough on poligamy.

    Second even though there is a high number of FLDS RLDS the percent compared to LDS is almost nothing. Add to that, they live in isolated communites and dont like to mix with the public. You dont often run into these people on a day to day basis.

    Third they dont like the goverment, they dont trust the goverment, and they dont participate in anything run by the goverment. If they were even called for jury duty ( I doubt it) I dont think they would show up.

    Even though Jeffs is high profile national news. Utah has prosicuted several big polig familys. Look up info on the Kingstons and the Greens. big polig familys.

    It would be like being worried that there is a italian mobster on a jury in a mob trial. The prosicutors will not let it happen. FLDS and RLDS would not be able to hide there allegance easy enough to trick the AG.
     
  12. Jack Matthews

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    Larry King on CNN tonight is focusing on the Jeffs trial. It seems that the prosecution is quite worried about the venue, the town of St. George, seat of Washington county, which contains Utah's largest collection of fundamentalist LDS groups. The concern is being able to seat a jury, because most FLDS, even those that aren't in Jeffs' particular group, think he is being unfairly charged. There also seems to be concern about protests, and local law enforcement, many of whom are FLDS themselves.

    If I were the prosecution, I'd move for a change of venue. I think there should be adequate grounds for that.
     
  13. stanleyg

    stanleyg
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    Pursuant to the definition of polygamy the Court may construe it as heresy. If it isn't heresy, then why is the term being asserted as a pejorative on national news to brand his religious group as a cult to inflame religious hatred against Minister Jeff and/or his followers?

    Pursuant agency laws the executive branch owns a fiduciary liability to enforce the Bill of Rights to due process in behalf of Minister Jeff et al. As such, it is prohibited by law as serving as an adversary party to the Defendants.

    Pursuant Article III Section 2 all cases against public ministers must originate in our U.S. Supreme Court.

    Otherwise, our government jeopardizes the likelihood of another David Koresh Waco Seige disaster or Timothy McVeigh Oklahoma City bombing attack by hostile sympathizers of Minister Jeff.

    After Hurricane Katrina fiasco our government has the audacity to charge any citizen with criminal activities.

    Matt7
    [5] Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

    Amen!
     
    #13 stanleyg, Sep 5, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 5, 2006
  14. DeeJay

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    Your local news may or may not (PLEASE POST LINK TO STORY) be calling Jeffs a heritic. But this is a fact. There is NO US law against being a heritic.

    Think about this. If there were laws against heresy, then who gets to decide what is heresy and what is not. Remember if a Roman Catholic is deciding then you are a heritic for being a Baptist. If I am deciding then I think their worship or Mary and praying to saints is heresy. If heresy was aginst the law just being Mormon would be illegal.

    Heresy can not be against the law. Any law against heresy would be in direct conflict with my first amentment rights.

    The goverment may make NO laws concerning religion. My and your right to be a heritic is protected.
     

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