Can we ALL agree that God loves and wants every person to be saved?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Jul 24, 2011.

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  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    Too often here on the BB I hear Calvinistic believers argue against the view that God indeed does love all people and desires for all to be saved.

    I created this thread to refer back to each time this point is brought up so as to show this is not the view of scripture or even many classical "Calvinistic" scholars. Consider the quotes from scripture and the Calvinistic scholars below (links included and emphasis added):
    Quote from Calvinist John Piper:
    "...as a hearty believer in unconditional, individual election I rejoice to affirm that God does not delight in the perishing of the impenitent, and that he has compassion on all people...."



    Quote from Calvinist John MacArthur:
    "I am troubled by the tendency of some - often young people newly infatuated with Reformed doctrine - who insist that God cannot possibly love those who never repent and believe. I encounter that view, it seems, with increasing frequency."



    Quote from John Calvin:
    John Calvin himself wrote regarding John 3:16, "[Two] points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish."




    Can we all at least affirm this common ground?:praying:
     
    #1 Skandelon, Jul 24, 2011
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  2. Earth Wind and Fire

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    No, no we cant.God loves His selected, not everyone. So I disagree. Do you believe Jesus died for the whole human race?
     
    #2 Earth Wind and Fire, Jul 24, 2011
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  3. preacher4truth

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    Obviously from the start of this OP he knows this not to be common ground. :wavey:
     
  4. Skandelon

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    That is fine, so long you are aware that your view is not the view of most mainstream Calvinists.

    Knowing you, I doubt that will matter much. You've always been somewhat of a maverick. :) I say that as a compliment, not in derision.

    I put this post here for those who might care what other Calvinistic scholars believe on the matter, so as to find common ground. It is also to show that even those who do agree with your view of sovereignty and soteriology at least acknowledge the clear biblical proof supporting this view making the case even more difficult for you to combat, IMO.

    Yes, but let's keep the focus on God's love and desire for all people to be saved, ok? We can discuss the views of atonement in another thread.
     
    #4 Skandelon, Jul 24, 2011
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  5. Iconoclast

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    We could agree that God loves sinners IN Christ.Those persons that God set His love upon before the world was..... are going to be saved. Each and every one of them. We can agree with this because the scripture declares this truth.

    If every person living today would like to stop sinning and repent......God would not forbid them. If followers of Islam wanted to repent of jihad and murder and trust Jesus as Lord and Saviour I am sure that would be fine also.
     
    #5 Iconoclast, Jul 24, 2011
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  6. Skandelon

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    Actually, I know it to be common ground for most mainstream Calvinists, but not necessarily all those who post here on the BB. I thought I made that point clear?

    As Piper says, "...God wills not to save all, even though he is willing to save all, because there is something else that he wills more, which would be lost if he exerted his sovereign power to save all. This is the solution that I as a Calvinist affirm along with Arminians. In other words both Calvinists and Arminians affirm two wills in God when they ponder deeply over 1 Timothy 2:4. Both can say that God wills for all to be saved. But then when queried why all are not saved both Calvinist and Arminian answer that God is committed to something even more valuable than saving all. The difference between Calvinists and Arminians lies not in whether there are two wills in God, but in what they say this higher commitment is...."
     
  7. Skandelon

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    That's fine as long as you acknowledge this views stands in contrast to those quoted in the OP including Calvin himself, not to mention the texts of scripture that have gone unanswered.
     
  8. Iconoclast

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    When you cherry pick some statements from these men i am not bound by them. All of your verses have been answered...not in this thread..but in others.
    My view is mainstream.I will go with what i have posted....and edited in.
    The Love of God that saves...is only In Christ not apart from Him...as it is eternal.
    Not everyone holds this nebulous two wills of God idea.What God has willed is multi-faceted , perfect and without outside constraints

    Ps... I do not read that much by any of these men. I do not think any of these men could dispute what I have posted. They might suggest or raise other side issues,ie...we are told to love our enemies...do good etc.....but that is not speaking directly of the saving grace and love of God.
     
    #8 Iconoclast, Jul 24, 2011
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  9. Jon-Marc

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    Jesus died for EVERYONE and has no desire that any should perish, but many will not heed the convicting message of the Holy Spirit and will not accept His free gift of forgiveness and salvation.
     
  10. preacher4truth

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    No, what you made clear is that on the BB it (your OP) hasn't been common ground:

    Which is why I said what I said.
     
  11. Winman

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    Jesus is not satisfied saving some men, he wants to save 100% of men.

    Luke 15:1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
    2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
    3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
    4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
    5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
    6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
    7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

    The scribes and Pharisees criticized Jesus because he sat down to eat with sinners. So, that is the topic Jesus replied to, sinners.

    Was Jesus satisfied saving 99% of sinners and leaving 1% to perish? NO. Jesus said he would seek even that one lost sheep to save it, and when he did save it there would be more rejoicing over that one lost sinner who came to repentance than ninety-nine who did not need repentance.

    So, Jesus is not interested in saving only some men, he wants to save all.
     
  12. preacher4truth

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    I also agree with the bolded. :thumbsup:

    (not that I disagree with the rest)
     
  13. Skandelon

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    Your statements either suggests:

    1. These men don't really believe what I claim they believe (yet the link is provided for you to view the context for yourself)

    Or

    2. These men may believe that, but you are not bound to them. (in which case, I never said you were, I only mentioned them to prove they represent the mainstream view)

    That would be true of every passage related to this topic and most others, so are we now always going to default to this answer?

    This comments suggests you believe Calvin, MacArthur and Piper don't represent the mainstream "Calvinistic" view in this instance. Is that the case?

    The is evident, but fine. May I suggest you objectively consider their view?
     
  14. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Oh yea, obviously:laugh:
     
  15. Skandelon

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    Allow me to also quote this from the article in the OP:

    "Those same truths, reflecting a biblical balance, have been vigorously defended by a host of Reformed stalwarts, including Thomas Boston, John Brown, Andrew Fuller, W. G. T. Shedd, R. L. Dabney, B. B. Warfield, John Murray, R. B. Kuiper, and many others. In no sense does belief in divine sovereignty rule out the love of God for all humanity." - John MacArthur

    (I would add Sproul, Packer and Spurgeon)
     
  16. DHK

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    So here you are looking back into eternity past, as if to say what God has decreed cannot be changed.
    But here are you are looking at the present as if to say that regardless of what was decreed in the past, if sinners do repent right now God would accept them. Isn't that a contradiction of what is typically called Calvinism.
     
  17. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Winman comment: So, Jesus is not interested in saving only some men, he wants to save all.

    So why doesn't he?
     
    #17 Earth Wind and Fire, Jul 24, 2011
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  18. preacher4truth

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    But of course, I have to be wrong, yes? I mean, no matter what, I must always be wrong, even when quoting the preliminary statement in the OP that proves this to not be common ground, at least in the mind of it originator.

    God created the world.

    God knew not all would saved.

    He sent His Son to die for His people. (Matthew 1:21)

    Now, God could most certainly have created a world in which all would be saved, no?

    Will all be saved in this world? No.

    Are all His elect? No.

    God knows all these things.
     
  19. Skandelon

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    As Piper's article explains, both Arminians and Calvinists must answer this question, but the answer is different. To deny the love and desire of God for all to be saved is only an attempt to avoid the complexity of this unavoidable question.
     
  20. Skandelon

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    I refuse to quibble with you again brother. I am OBVIOUSLY saying that this is common ground in the mainstream views of Calvinism and Arminianism, but not always here on the BB and thus I'm asking if it can be. Enough said, let's discuss the subject of the thread now, thanks.
     
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