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Featured Can we conclude that Calvinism is a relatively NEW doctrine?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Dec 17, 2012.

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  1. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    #41 HeirofSalvation, Dec 18, 2012
  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    #42 Earth Wind and Fire, Dec 18, 2012
  3. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Truly....I dont. But you should also consider taking your own advise about being a fool.
     
    #43 Earth Wind and Fire, Dec 18, 2012
  4. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    What this sounds like to me, is that this issue is similar to the issue of men losing their salvation, which one can also quote Early fathers saying things on both sides of the issue. In other words, they believed God chose people, and that People had to choose God, and that the Bible taught both, and that both were true, and they couldn't reconcile them...As Boetner said, It was not a topic of special study, since they were busy being killed. It also sounds like, from the quotes offered, that while some specifically DID want to argue against the idea that God caused some people to repent, others were not so specific.

    One can easily find quotes from church fathers that sound like a Christian can lose their salvation (and some definitely believed they could), but one could also find quotes from John Piper that sound as though a believer can lose their salvation...

    Also, It seems Boetner also sees some early father's denying God's foreknowledge...which again points to the difficulty of basing our beliefs on those of the early fathers.
     
    #44 12strings, Dec 18, 2012
  5. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Boettner clearly believed they affirmed a synergistic approach and would have denied the Reformed doctrine of Predestination. I agree with his assessment based upon all I have read to this point. I've only touched the tip of the iceberg thus far as to the number of ECF's quotes which specifically undermine the foundational claims of Reformed doctrine.

    In one since they could...'those who have gone out from us were never really of us' affirms this. As from the human perspective alone one appears to fall away or turn from that which they appeared to once belong. Assurance is only attained in continued relationship...

    You will need to point me to the quote he is speaking of because I think he simply means denying foreknowledge from the Reformed perspective (foreordination). Nevertheless, as I said before, the goal here is not to defend every view of the ECFs. Like scholars today, they all have various nuanced views and perspectives on many different issues.

    The goal is simply to evaluate two possible interpretations of the original authors regarding free will, election and predestination by looking at the works of those closest to the original authors. For, I think any objective reader would acknowledge that when two viable interpretations are being presented, a look at the first students of those who proposed the original views could certainly be helpful.

    I believe they are very helpful. Very helpful indeed.
     
    #45 Skandelon, Dec 18, 2012
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  6. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    Hi, Icon:
     
    #46 HeirofSalvation, Dec 18, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2012
  7. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    #47 HeirofSalvation, Dec 18, 2012
  8. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    Quickly, since I have to run (and by run, I mean walk 30 feet to my car and drive)...

     
    #48 12strings, Dec 18, 2012
  9. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I welcome you to present the quotes for consideration as that is the purpose of this thread. I'll attempt to deal with them as objectively as I can if you will do the same.
     
    #49 Skandelon, Dec 18, 2012
  10. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    On your behalf alone........I will sacrifice to the gods every day for the rest of my life.........this cliche' has been driving me crazy for years!!!:laugh::laugh::wavey:
     
    #50 HeirofSalvation, Dec 18, 2012
  11. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    #51 Earth Wind and Fire, Dec 18, 2012
  12. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    #52 HeirofSalvation, Dec 18, 2012
  13. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    #53 Earth Wind and Fire, Dec 18, 2012
  14. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    There is nothing new under the sun. Since before Adam fell there has been the Truth, and there has been the Lie.

    Naturally, one holding a particular view cannot concede that his was an innovation and still maintain its truthfulness, unless, like CBT et al, one has a Darwinian view of the Church and its doctrines. So, it's only natural that Scandal would attempt to rewrite history.

    The Truth is Jesus Christ and Him Crucified. Christ's words about Himself and His disciples is the truth about the Truth.

    The Lie is "Ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Which doctrine is closer to "ye shall be as gods?" The one that says no man may come to God except God draw him, or the one that says a man may draw himself to God?

    [Note: Scandal will attempt to straddle the fence by redefining "draw," "power," "spirit," etc.]
     
    #54 Aaron, Dec 18, 2012
  15. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    #55 HeirofSalvation, Dec 18, 2012
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

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    #56 Earth Wind and Fire, Dec 18, 2012
  17. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    #57 HeirofSalvation, Dec 18, 2012
  18. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    You don't what? You said "I can care less". This means you care. Maybe you meant to say "I can't care less" meaning you don't care at all...but we will never know given the hard time you are having between rational and rationale. Wouldnt be so quick to call anyone a fool.
     
    #58 webdog, Dec 18, 2012
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    OK, got it.....so let me clarify this for you so you finally have it.

    I dont give a ....fig. Hope this gives you understanding. Now as to calling someone a fool, it was you who started that load of baloney.....so, just saying.
     
    #59 Earth Wind and Fire, Dec 18, 2012
  20. Earth Wind and Fire

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    #60 Earth Wind and Fire, Dec 18, 2012
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