Can we go to heaven yet?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by 3AngelsMom, Jul 15, 2003.

  1. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom
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    I would like to take the soul sleep debate a step further, and actually discuss the doctrine that is the basis of the false doctrine of immediate reward.

    Immortality of the soul.

    The following passage outlines what will happen at death, and why, and what will take place in the resurrection.

    1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
    1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
    1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
    1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
    1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
    1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
    1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
    1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
    1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
    1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
    1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
    1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
    1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1Co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

    Ok, so based on that passage, how can anyone here claim that they are going to go to heaven when they die because they have an immortal soul in them?

    God Bless,
    Kelly
     
  2. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
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    "For I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance, as it is my eager expectation and hope that I shall not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If it is to be life in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account. Convinced of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith, so that in me you may have ample cause to glory in Christ Jesus, because of my coming to you again." (Phil 1:19-26)
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Both views hold this in common. That for the one dying - death is a doorway into the presence of Christ.

    In the case of those who accept the John 11 and 1Thess 4 statements of Christ about the "person" sleeping in death - it is an instant doorway to the resurrection and the coming of Christ - to others it is a doorway into the presence of Christ in heaven PRE-resurrection.

    But in BOTH views it is an instantaneous event that takes place at death from the POV of the one dying.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. Kathryn

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    I apologize if this has been asked before, and I missed it, but what about those people such as the ones who perished in the World Trade Center whose bodies were not located? It is said that some were vaporated. Many are only ashes all over New York, and much of the ashes and soil in dumps in other locations. Or what about other people who perish and are eaten by wild animals? Where would so many of their souls be "sleeping" without their bodies?

    God Bless
     
  5. DHK

    DHK
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    At the resurrection God will miraculously find every atom of their body and turn it into a glorified body.
     
  6. Kathryn

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    I am sorry if I did not make myself clear. The question is for those who believe in "soul sleep" where are their souls "sleeping" until the resurrection if their body is not around.

    But, yes, DHK, I agree that at the resurrection God will have no trouble giving them their glorified bodies.
     
  7. Singer

    Singer
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    Where would so many of their souls be "sleeping"
    without their bodies?


    Those who are ashes or eaten by wild animals would be no less sleeping
    in their bodies than those who were buried traditionally and turned into
    dust after 50 years. Evidently God does not need a decayed body to be
    able to ressurrect one to its fullness.

    What is the reason for our old bodies to be ressurrected anyhow.? Someone
    has said it's for the purpose of that old body paying the debts of sin although
    the spirit is free and saved.

    The bible says the sea will give up those in it at Christ's coming, so there
    must be a way to rejuvinate a body from the oblivion that sets in after time.

    It's not like we're going to succeed in directing the outcome of that dilemma.
     
  8. Kathryn

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    My question was for those who believe the soul is "sleeping" until the resurrection. Where is it "sleeping" without the body? I myself do not believe in soul sleep and see this as a problem for those who do believe in it. I would like to hear the explanation of what they believe would happen in these cases where a body is not in the grave but essentially vaporated such as the World Trade Center. Where would the soul be "sleeping"?

    God Bless
     
  9. Mike McK

    Mike McK
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    Jesus told the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43, "Today you will be with me in paradise".
     
  10. BobRyan

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    1Thess 4 "EVEN So Christ will Bring WITH HIM those who have fallen asleep".

    They are with Christ - but dormant - asleep.

    John 11 "our FRIEND Lazarus SLEEPS. I go that I may WAKE HIM". (nothing I about "I go that I may wake IT".)

    The spirit returns to God who gave it. But it is dormant. Asleep in that sense. Not active.

    "God is NOT the God of the dead but of the living" Matt 22 "Proving" the resurrection as the only way that is true.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. Kathryn

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    Thank you Bob for your reply. Then why is this thread called "Can we go to heaven yet?" This is what confused me. Do you and Kelly believe the same thing that the soul is "asleep" in heaven with Christ until the resurrection then united with the glorified body? Or does she have a different idea about this? I guess what I am asking is do any soul sleepers believe the soul stays with the body? Thanks.
     
  12. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert
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    3 A M

    Here's one key. We shall all be changed.

    Yes, you are correct that the teaching of man as having an immortal soul is Platonism, not Christianity. Scripture says that only God is immortal. Yet we are going to be changed.

    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    This is fascinating. This is the same language which is used in 1 Thess. 4 and to which the Premillenialists appeal for a "secret rapture" of the Church. Yet, as you see by the context, St. Paul is discussing the resurrection isn't he? Therefore, unless we have a severe warrant, which I am not seeing from the text, this passage is describing what happens when the resurrection takes place.

    1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    We put on Christ's immortality when we experience the resurrection. The first resurrection is that of the soul. It is spiritual, the releasing of the souls who were waiting in Paradise for the work to be finished, and the changing of the souls of those who were yet alive on earth. In a "twinkling of an eye" they were "caught up" in the spiritual realm so that when they died -- no Paradise. They would go to be directly with the Lord because the work was finished, the New Covenant officially inaugurated upon the destruction of the Old Covenant temple and people, and the doors to Heaven now opened. All this happened to the souls of believers when Christ returned, and upon His final return, at the end of time, the bodies of the dead shall be reunited with their souls to make a complete person, who will spend eternity in either a state of blessing or damnation.

    1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    Death is indeed swallowed up in victory. Paradise is closed and the victorious saints, no longer separated from God by "death", go directly into His presence.

    We become immortal beings when we put on the likeness of Christ and not a second before this. That is the blessing which awaits in Heaven now for the faithful. We indeed put it on, as St. Paul suggests, as one puts on a garment.

    Cordially in Christ through the Theotokos,


    Brother Ed
     
  13. BobRyan

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    I am not sure what her view is on that. I have seen some of her posts here that would indicate that she views the soul as waiting here on earth.

    However I know she believes that the spirit of all mankind (both good and bad) goes to God at death - as do I.

    But I would argue - that the soul "That man can not kill" is in that sense - going to God at death.

    I would also argue that "An exhaustive anatomy" of the soul and spirit has yet to be written. So we can tell that a person is asleep, dormant etc in death but we can not tell exatly what the soul or spirit is "made of" beyond the fact that the spirit united with a physical body makes up a living (non-sleeping) active soul.

    There are a great many people who believe that a person "sleeps" while the body is dead - and would allow that the spirit that returns to God at death - is how this can happen.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. DHK

    DHK
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    This is where most of us would disagree with you.
    I do not believe that the spirit of Saddam Hussein, Osama ben Laden, or Stalin or Hitler will or have gone to God at death. I believe they go straight to Hell.
    DHK
     
  15. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom
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    Kathryn,

    Could we get back on topic now? ;)

    If you want to discuss soul sleep, start a thread, I'd be more than glad to discuss it with you. [​IMG]

    I can't understand why the opening post would confuse you. I want to discuss the doctrine of 'immortality of the soul' with people who believe that they have an immortal soul inside them, hence the question after the passage.

    Do you believe that you have an immortal soul inside of your body?

    God Bless,
    Kelly
     
  16. Kathryn

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    Kelly:
    Did you answer my question and I missed it?
     
  17. Kathryn

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    Kelly:
    I went through the search engine and came up with this by you in the "Soul Sleep" thread and found that you do believe the soul stays with the body until the resurrection......which is why you would think we can not go to heaven yet. I am curious how you would explain the soul staying with the body, if the body is vaporized or scattered over diffent geographic areas such as the victims of the World Trade Center, or if eaten by animals. But, I am not really motivated to hound you about this.

    God Bless
     
  18. 3AngelsMom

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    Kathryn,
    The bodies of the dead are known by God. He knows where they are.

    If a person was vaporized in the 911 incident, then wherever their bodies are, even if in 'vapor' form, God knows.

    I don't know what BobRyan is talking about. His view is totally new to me.

    What I have come to believe through my own study, and the materials that were given to me when I joined the SDA Church, the SDA believes that the dead sleep in the grave, awaiting the resurrection.

    Let me share a portion of an article with you. It is from the Amazing Facts website. It is by a man named Doug Bachelor. He is one of the most 'successful' evangelists of the SDA church. If you want to read the entire article in context it is at Soul Sleep Explained .

    I don't know where BobRyan is coming from in his conclusions, and from my knowledge of the SDA doctrines, he is not in agreement with the majority, if not ALL of the other members of the SDA church.

    God Bless,
    Kelly
     
  19. Kathryn

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    Kelly:
    That was not my question at all. I realize God knows everything and knows where every atom of their bodies are. My question though is where would the soul be "sleeping" to remain with the body?

    Wouldn't it be separated from the body if parts of the body are in different geographical areas or vaporized? Or does the soul have to separate itself into million or billions of pieces? I don't think souls are designed by God that way.

    Like I say, I know God knows where every atom of the bodies are, but how does the soul stay with the body if say sharks eat the person? This seems to be a real problem for anyone who believes in soul sleep with the soul remaining with the body until the resurrection.

    God Bless
     
  20. 3AngelsMom

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    Kathryn,

    Your question is based on a false premise.

    I don't believe the 'soul' of man to be a 'separate' entity apart from the body.

    A living soul or 'nephesh chay' is the combination of body and spirit, or more simply, dust and breath. When God formed Adam, He formed Him from the 'elements' of the earth, and breathed into his nostrils the 'breath' of life or SPIRIT of life. At death, the dust or elements returns to the earth, and the spirit, which is the breath of life return to God who gave it.

    So where did the 'living soul' go? The 'living' soul is now a 'dead soul'.

    Can your soul die? YES. The soul that sins, will die. Do you sin? Yes, we all do. Therefore, WE die. We are living souls, because we have the breath of life in us. When that breath leaves us, we die, and are dead souls.

    You ARE a soul.

    You don't 'have' a soul.

    Get it? (you can answer yes to that, without claiming agreement btw) [​IMG]

    God Bless,
    Kelly
     

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