Can we judge salvation?

Man's judgment is flawed only when it does not line up with God's Holy Word. Jesus Christ Himself said in John 7:24 '...judge righteous judgment.'

Righteous judgment is when one discerns whether something is right according to the Word of God.

 

I don't know how old either of you are, but would like to ask a question.

Have you ever had a Pastor or preacher that you had full confidence in run off with another woman, other than his wife. Or have any christians you had full confidence in, ever turn out to be molestors, adulterers, pedofilers etc, or have everyone you have known in your christian life, that you had full confidence in, never turned out to be something other than what they said???

BBob,

 

Testimony of others is sometimes called gossip...
That COULD be dangerous....

 

Well, I agree that whoever goes to heaven belongs to God, but all the saved are going to heaven and you say, you can tell who is saved or not. I asked before about Judas and never got an answer.

BBob,

 

if that is the case, then Paul is guilty of gossip, as he warned of people often.

John also carried warnings... they went out from us because they wree not of us... i.e., they were not Christians.

 

This is the problem with taking scripture out of context...

You conveniently left off the first part of the verse...

Here it is quoted from the KJV...
Joh 7:24
(24) Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Jesus was saying to have all the facts... not just appearance, before we judge...

That is the only way to judge righteously... without knowing all the facts our judgments would be unrighteous....

And when it comes to salvation, God is the only one that has all the facts...

We can have a good strong guess... but that is about it...

 

Bob, have you had a pastor to commit those sins? Why the fixation on these particular sins in each and every thread I read your posts in?

To answer your questions, No. No pastor I ever sat under was a molester, adulterer, pedophile, etc., to the best of my knowledge. If such had been the case, I would have demanded that he be stripped of rank. Such an one is not in position to pastor or lead God's people.

 

Yes I have.. look for a PM..

 

One can only judge fruit, not salvation except for their own.

A tree is alive or dead. It may be going through a very harsh winter and bare no fruit. It may be going through Spring and only bare flowers, but eventually it will go through fall/harvest time and that fruit will appear only if that tree has reached maturity to be able to bare fruit.

Immature Christians are not able to bare much fruit, but they do have the God-given ability to do so.

John 15 tells us that the branch that does not bare fruit is taken up/ pruned and cast into the fire. That is only done as a means to help the vine bare fruit. The reason for casting the unfruitful into the fire is to cleanse the vine of branches that have no ability in them to ever be able to bare fruit. This represents the unsaved.

Only after much experience in observing a fruit tree does the grower know if that tree or vine will ever bare fruit as a mature vine or tree.

So in reality, yes, one can, after much observation, tell whether or not one is truly saved by knowing them by their fruits or lack thereof.

The only problem many will have is that nowhere in God's word do we see anyone ever called to be a fruit inspector! we are not to inspect for fruit, but be busy about dunging the tree to cause fruitfulness in others!!!

In essense it's called efficaciousness.

Too many uncalled inspecting for fruit when they should be edifying the brethren.

 

tim,

If their actions do not line up with God's Word, we are to judge thus, and to rebuke, correct, and instruct them.

Read in context, one would find that when Jesus said 'Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment', He was referring to the fact that they had judged wrong when they judged Him as unlearned. Not because of His actions. They saw His actions and asked, "How can this be...?"

Man does look at the outward and God at the heart, but Jesus said that which is in the heart would ultimately show on the outside. The words we speak, the life we portray, the path we walk,... all begin in the heart of man.

 

You are the only person I know of that has not seen someone who they felt were saved, run off and show what they really were.
I use this because it gets to the kernel real fast, without several posts to get your point across.

Yes, I have had Pastor run off with a young woman. I have know several Preachers and Lay members who have done the same.

I am amazed that you have never known anyone who you had confidence in run off and commit such things. You are truly blessed.

BBob,

 

You seem to be talking both ways Sal; Maybe I am misreading you.

Act 20:29For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Act 20:30Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Wonder how they got in among them, if they could if they were wolves or not.

I believe this is the first time I have seen someone say they could tell who is saved and who is not. I just do not have that ability.

I can pretty well tell when "some" are not saved in my mind, and can pretty well tell when "some" are saved in my mind, but could be wrong. I really believe that is what scripture means when it says "judge not". I don't think God give us the ability to "know' who is saved.


BBob,

 

Are all these ministers you have known that have run off with another woman members of your denomination, Bob? If so, maybe you need to switch denominations.

You seem to be putting all pastors into the same category... as low life's who will chase any skirt other than their own wive's.

Well, Bob, I pastored for 8 wonderful years and not once ran off with another woman. Nor did I even consider such a thing. I personally know many pastors who are happily married and have never run off with other women.

Just who are you hanging around with, Bob?

 

Sometimes you really come across as if you don't know a whole lot Sfic;
Nowhere did I say anything about you and I am talking about Pastors in general. I know many Pastors who are happily married too, and I am one of them for 46 years to the same woman.

I doubt if you do not know of some, who have run off, unless you live a very very sheltered life. Have you spent your Christian life there at the computer or what??

BBob,

 

IOW, Bob, you are calling me a liar?

I will pray for you and that spirit of doubting.

 

I will apologize if it seems I called you a liar, I didn't mean to. I said you could of led a sheltered life. Maybe you think the only ones saved are the ones you have known, and that would explain it.

 

My two cents:

If a person has no testimony and no regard for the Lord and the things of God, it is a pretty good indication that something isn't quite right.

Most people I know who are not saved, believe contrary to the gospel, have no testimony, and have no regard for morality.

There are a lot of people using terminology today that sounds "Christian." I work with a person who talks about "God" all the time and how much she talks to "God" and she and "God" have a wonderful relationship. She even reads the Bible. But she is not a Christian. She professes no testimony about a day and time when she realized that Christ died for her sins and that she asked Him to save her. She believes that "God" will accept you as you are and that there is no need to change. You can be who you are, and try to be a good person, and you will go to heaven. Even though she believes she is right with "God" she knows the difference between being a born-again Christian and not being one because she says she is not one. However, praise the Lord, I have had several opportunities to share the gospel with her and she has been interested in listening.

I believe some of the scriptures already mentioned in this topic, about those who are fornicators, etc. not entering the kingdom, are speaking of those who habitually do these things without any conscience or care that they are sinful in God's eyes and have no personal salvation testimony about a time in their life where they asked Christ to save them. There are a lot of people in America today who believe they are "Christian" just because they go to church, they are a good person, or God won't really send anyone to hell. I've heard all of these and more from people that did not profess Christ as their Savior but who call themselves "Christian."

If there were no way to tell if a person was not saved how would we know who to evangelize? If someone professes to belong to Christ but has sinned or has been living in sin, they need a brother to correct them in firmness and love, as it says in James. The one who has been born-again will come to repentance, like the prodigal son, if God has not taken him/her home first, since there is a sin unto death where God sometimes decides to take the sinning saint home instead of letting him remain in this life living in a particular sin. However, people who continue on in habitual wickedness, with no regard of Scripture, and partaking in things such as abortion, the support of those who seek abortion, fornication, etc. without desiring repentance, or believing they have no need to repent of these things, are probably in danger and need someone to share the truth with them so they can be sure whether they have really asked Christ to save them or not. Maybe they were exposed to a false gospel and need to hear it as God has said it, for their own sake. Jesus spoke of the good tree and corrupt tree and its respective fruit immediately preceding his warning that not all who say "Lord, Lord" truly know Him. I had a friend once (we grew up together) who claimed she was a Christian but who believed she could break God's rules set for sexual purity, vile language, abortion, without believing she needed to repent of her beliefs. For me, Romans 1:28-2:6 is rather ominous in addressing behaviors that are practiced without conscience by those who might "look" like Christians on the outside but who practice these things, without repentance, in their lives. If the fruit is continually rotten and a tree never produces good fruit... I believe that is what Jesus was talking about. He didn't tell us this, however, so that we could go around and check everyone's fruit but so that we would treat those people with love and so that we would know how to approach them and share the truth with them so that they can realize their need for Him and truly be saved. If I never asked the Lord to save me and just thought I was a Christian, I would hope someone would recognize that and tell me so I could know.

I also believe that His analogy is explaining that a particular tree produces a particular kind of fruit. Oranges don't grow from grape vines and apples don't grow on olive trees. So, a Christian tree will produce Christian fruit, not the fruit of an unsaved tree, or the fruit it once produced before it became a Christian tree. This is not saying that a Christian cannot sin, but it shows that the habitual fruit of the believer will be Christian fruit more than the fruit of wickedness.

It comes down to whether or not the person has a personal testimony (profession) of having accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior. It starts there. For those who do not profess Him as their Savior, we shouldn't judge them harshly because they are lost and need us to share the gospel with them so they can know the truth.

 

I believe it's wrong to put all pastors in the same category. To say that all pastor would act the same way in any situation, especially when it's temptation is ludicrous. I know a few from stories online. I would hope they are in the minority. If they can't resist temptation they don't need to be preaching the Word.

I want to know who Bob is hanging around too.

Why do you believe he comes across as not knowing much?

I like his comments and I think StandingfirminChrist believes like I do. I don't see someone who would break under the assault of the devil's lies.

I don't see him as living a sheltered life either.

 

To say that I have put all Pastors in the same category, is making false statements.

I didn't ask you about SFic, that I remember?

BBob,