Featured Can you be a Christian but not a disciple?

Here is the parallel passage in Matthew 16:24--"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Here it is clear that Jesus was giving this challenge to people who were already disciples, not inviting people to trust Him as Savior.

 

Thanks. I'll keep trying as long as people continue to treat each other with Christian respect on this thread. :wavey:

 

Please tell us what a disciple is and how one can be a disciple while not attracting attention to it.

And after these things Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, asked of Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took away his body. And there came also Nicodemus, he who at the first came to him by night, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds. Jn 19:38,39

 

That is the proof that many have confused and mixed together sayings of Jesus and the Apostles regarding salvation at the beginning, and how to live and act once already saved!

As there seems to be two errornous messages being taught today in many churches...

One extreme is to be saved, and yet don't try to become his disciple, just take Him for fire insurance policy, while other is that you must be willing and do give everything up to Him before even can get saved!

 

I agree with this. And to me it is clear that my comments about the word "disciple" occurring nowhere after Acts is extremely important in this discussion, since all will agree that Romans gives us the theology of salvation--but nowhere mentions discipleship.

 

More about carrying one's cross: in the first century Roman Empire, to take up one's cross was to carry an instrument of capital punishment, not the symbol of Christ, Who of course had not yet died. So what Jesus was saying was a metaphor for being willing to die for the cause. In 1st century Rome this was a necessary challenge, because those who followed Jesus, calling Him the Son of God rather than the emperor, faced actual death by capital punishment on a cross.

Now, my question is, if Jesus was calling people to discipleship (with the meaning of salvation) with His "bear your cross" statement, then who among you does evangelism by making literal this metaphor and saying, "Are you willing to die for Christ? Because if you aren't you can't be saved." Anyone? I daresay none of you do. And John MacArthur does not either, yet that is exactly what the cross statement (Matt. 16:24, Mark 18:34, 10:21, Luke 9:23) is saying if it is talking about salvation, once you understand the metaphor.

 

Revmitchell posted:

There is no such thing as "saving faith." Faith is faith. Whether it be faith in your dog, your wife, child, car, etc. Faith is faith. It is confidence, trust in another.
What is it that differentiates faith is the object. Faith always has an object. Faith in your dog won't get you to heaven. The object of your faith must be in Christ. Your faith in the Greek language and your ability to differentiate between different nuances of words won't get you there either. You must have faith in Christ. Unless the object of your faith if Christ one cannot enter into the kingdom of God. It is not the definition of faith that is at stake here, but the object of faith. What is the object of your faith?

 

I don't use it; neither does the Bible use it. Neither do most Baptist statements of faith use it.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
I can't imagine what it would be like in evangelism if you had to define faith to an unsaved person.

 

Good, then neither should you.
Shall I close the thread then. Or do you want to get back on topic:

Can you be a Christian but not a disciple?

 

Oh no, don't close the thread, I want him to answer my question first:

Please tell us what a disciple is and how one can be a disciple while not attracting attention to it.

And after these things Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, asked of Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took away his body. And there came also Nicodemus, he who at the first came to him by night, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds. Jn 19:38,39

 

faith does not save ANY sinner, but the One in whom faith has been placed into does!

Jesus death/resurrection means of saving us, and faith the chosen bridge God uses to get us to Him for salvation!

 

To say that John of Japan believes that "only intellectual faith is necessary for salvation" would be a lie. I don't believe that nor do I teach it nor have I said it here or anywhere else in my 44 years of preaching the Gospel. I believe that salvation involves a trust from the heart in Christ's finished work on the cross, and oppose any idea that it is just mental assent.

Bennett was doing fine until he said used the term "total surrender." He simply stated that as if it were a fact without any proof--just what you did. In order to prove LS from the Greek word pisteuo and the Jewish attitude about it in the 1st century, this is what must be addressed. What in Jewish 1st century culture or the semantics of pisteuo makes it mean "total surrender"? Please address this, or the "total surrender" statement remains only the opinion of Bennett and you--not a semantic fact.

 

I wasn't offended at you, since they were not your words. What is offensive is the straw man that Bennett set up, that opponents of LS all advocate simple mental assent.

Sorry, Bennett's case is not clear at all. For example, where does he get the idea that eis indicates "union with him"? He doesn't give any reference for this statement. My biggest lexicon, BAGD, says no such thing in five columns of the meanings of eis.

In fact, BAGD confirms my own view that eis and en are sometimes synonyms; the difference when they are used with pisteuo is only one of style: "In these and similar cases eis approaches en in mng" (p. 228). The same goes for Abbot-Smith and my other lexicons. Bennett simply made up the meaning of "union with."

No, Bennett simply gave his opinion with no proof. He threw in his own definitions of the prepositions to make it sound scholarly, but it wasn't. In order to prove his "total surrender" definition, he would have had to give examples from 1st cent. extra-Biblical sources, because there are no such unambiguous NT usages; something like a slave saying to to his master, "I believe in you, so I must obey you."

"The best way to determine the meanings of a preposition is to study it in its various contexts and note its various uses" (A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, by Dana and Mantey, pp. 98-99). Bennett did not do this, but simply gave his opinion. He made a radical statement about the Greek, but then failed to back it up with lexicons, NT usage or his own research.

 

That's good stuff. Also consider:

1Peter 2:
18 Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable.

19 For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly.

20 For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.

21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,

22 who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth;

23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;


In verse 21, Peter said that Jesus Christ suffered, leaving an example for us to follow in His steps - Pick Up Our Cross.

But then consider what he also wrote in verse 19 - this finds favor with God. Are we to think that we can "suffer" our way into the kind of charis Paul speaks about in Ephesians 2:8 ??

 

Good points. And Peter was writing to people who were already believers; he wasn't doing evangelism.

 

At the very point of salvation, when I was once a sinner, but now once saved, what did God require me to do in order to receive eternal life?