1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Can you be saved and not know it?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Lacy Evans, Mar 2, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2003
    Messages:
    2,508
    Likes Received:
    3

    The rich young ruler is certainly one example of this. As we agree, the requirement to give all you have to the poor in not a requirement for salvation in general. Giving your life to Christ is a requirement.
     
  2. amity

    amity New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2006
    Messages:
    811
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why would Christ make it tougher for the rich young ruler than for you and me?
     
  3. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jesus' comment to the rich young ruler was not Him putting a special requirement on that young man for salvation. That rich young ruler had claimed to have obeyed ALL the commandments his entire life. You realize what that meant? That meant the rich young ruler did not believe himself to be a sinner. He thought he HAD obeyed ALL the commandments.

    Jesus was saying "Ok, you've obeyed all the commandments? Go and sell all those riches you have, then tell me you rely completely on God. Stop depending on your wealth, stop wanting more and more and more, and THEN tell me that you put God first in your life."

    Jesus' comment was made to show the rich young ruler his own heart. To point out just how much stock he was putting in those riches, and to point out that being wealthy does not mean he was pleasing God.

    In the Jewish thinking the wealthier you were the more you had pleased God.


    Jesus was not placing a special requirement for salvation on the rich young ruler. He was pointing out to him what he was really trusting in.
     
  4. amity

    amity New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2006
    Messages:
    811
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think that is a better analysis. But what is the point of Christ's statement to the disciples that with men it is impossible, but with God all things are possible?
     
  5. NiteShift

    NiteShift New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,034
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am sure that many here know the Bible better than I do, but I am going to say that I agree that a man may be saved and not know it. Nothing is impossible for the Lord, and we do not know all his thoughts. Consider Isaiah 45:

    1 Thus saith the L[SIZE=-1]ORD[/SIZE] to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two-leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
    2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
    3 and I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the L[SIZE=-1]ORD[/SIZE], which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
    4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
    5 I am the L[SIZE=-1]ORD[/SIZE], and there is none else, there is no God besides me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me;
    6 that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none besides me. I am the L[SIZE=-1]ORD[/SIZE], and there is none else.
    7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the L[SIZE=-1]ORD[/SIZE] do all these things.
    8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the L[SIZE=-1]ORD[/SIZE] have created it.
    9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
    10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
    11 Thus saith the L[SIZE=-1]ORD[/SIZE], the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
    12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
    13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the L[SIZE=-1]ORD[/SIZE] of hosts.
     
  6. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    0
    again, the disciples' reaction was typical of that day's thinking of the rich being more in favor with God. So for them, to say it is hard for a rich man to be saved, to them this was saying alot! It meant that even those who God favored with wealth were not worthy of salvation. So how then is a person saved? Thus, "With men it is impossible, but with GOD all things are possible."

    We are not saved by our own purity or our own works or our own ability to please God. WE are saved only by the power of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
     
  7. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, I am back folks and all is well as far as the heart goes. First time in 5 heart catherizations, I didn't have to go straight to heart surgery. I thank you again for your prayers.

    Now back to knowledge. You are right Sal, I should not of used someone else's writings, without listing their name. It is something I am not in the habit doing.

    I " know" as much as anyone of BB, about being saved but it all is my "belief". My knowledge of Christ is my faith and belief. My knowledge of the scriptures is my faith and belief, that they are the word of God. Therefore my knowledge of my salvation is my faith and belief.

    Almost all writers who say they have knowledge talk about the difference in them now, but that their "hope" is in that which is to come, and so is mine, for they know they have not received it all as of yet. I could list which is to come but you already know.

    Thanks again,

    Sal; you need to stop using such sayings. It is not becoming a Christian and you are setting yourself up as God. Let God do the judging, it is not your job. When you infer that people who don't believe as you do are "of the devil" you cause them to become defensive. We all see through a glass darkly, and that includes you. No man knows it all and I mean "no man". At least say IMO.
     
    #107 Brother Bob, Mar 10, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 10, 2007
  8. amity

    amity New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2006
    Messages:
    811
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is implausible. I feel pretty sure that the disciples did not think that God's favor rested upon the wealthy. They were followers of Christ, after all, a poor boy from Nazareth!

    Welcome back, Brother Bob! We have been praying for you. Glad you had no problems.
     
  9. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is not at all implausible, amity. If really looking at the Bible with no preconceptions, there's actually nothing that says Jesus' family was poor.......

    Also, many of them thought of Jesus as a prophet, and prophets were in their own set. To the Jew, a regular guy who was wealthy was obviously being blessed by God. This is not to say that no one else was seen as blessed too!
     
  10. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2003
    Messages:
    2,508
    Likes Received:
    3

    He doesn't. The requirement is that we give up whatever is the lord of our sinful life. If for you, that is money like it is for the rich young ruler, that's what He asks you to give up. Too many proclaiming Christians today claim that salvation is free and easy. It is not. In order to save your life you must lose it.
     
  11. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2003
    Messages:
    2,508
    Likes Received:
    3
    This is from the OLD Testament. We're saved under the second covenant, i.e. though the blood of Christ. Do you have a New Testament quote to support the position that we can be saved and not know it?
     
  12. NiteShift

    NiteShift New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,034
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes I know that we are under a different dispensation, but God is unchanging. The God of the Old Testament is the same Lord that we find in the New Testament..."Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."

    John 4 - Jesus knew, and had saved the Samaritan woman at the well before she knew or had spoken to him.

    Luke 19 - Jesus knew, and had saved Zacchaeus before having ever spoken to him.



     
  13. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    0
    What in those two passages indicates to you that either of those people were saved BEFORE they spoke to Jesus?




    Let me add for the OP that as of right now I believe that one can have doubts about their salvation and still be saved. So in a sense yes, you can be saved and not "KNOW" it....as in not have assurance yet because your knowledge has not grown in that area.

    However, the idea that a person is saved BEFORE they BELIEVED in Jesus is not found in the Bible. The passages that NiteShift quoted above don't say anything of the sort to my recollection. It could be said that they were saved because they believed in the Messiah and THEN met the Messiah Jesus Christ.......but that is still belief in Christ.

    What was said to the Philippian jailer when he asked how to be saved?

    What was said to the Ethiopian eunuch when he asked what was preventing him from being baptised?

    What was said to the Romans in chapter 9 and 10?

    And what was said to Nicodemus?


    All of the answers are "believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ"


    The Bible further says that you cannot believe in Him of whom you have not heard.

    Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
    [15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

    btw, this is also an excellent verse to answer those who proclaim themselves "against missionism"
     
    #113 bapmom, Mar 10, 2007
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2007
  14. NiteShift

    NiteShift New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,034
    Likes Received:
    0
    Again, see Isaiah 45. Cyrus didn't know the Lord, yet God knew him, raised him up in righteousness, saved him. Our knowledge of God doesn't come exclusively from the New Testament.


    Matthew 25

    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?


    That sounds very much as if they did not know that they were saved.

    I am not attempting to argue, other than to say that God doesn't always do things according to our understanding, or our script.
     
  15. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    0
    A) How do you know Cyrus did not know the Lord? The OT people were saved the same way we are today, through belief in what God said to them. They trusted that God could and would save them, and placed their trust inHim, so they were saved just like us. What makes you think Cyrus didn't know God?

    B) The verses you quoted simply reference the fact that those righteous people were doing good things without the thought of being rewarded for it in Heaven. Those verses do not indicate anything about salvation, simply the fact that when we do something good for another person it is just as if we were doing it for Jesus Christ. It's actually a very good passage to point out that works do not save you, but they are a natural outcome of a saved life.


    again, you cannot ignore this passage:
    Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
    [15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
     
    #115 bapmom, Mar 11, 2007
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2007
  16. NiteShift

    NiteShift New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,034
    Likes Received:
    0
    Cyrus did not know Him. "I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me."

    "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me".

    Cyrus did, of course, later come to know the Lord, but this passage was written a century before he was born.


    I don't ignore it. God commands it (preaching the Gospel) and it should be done.
     
  17. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    0
    so here now you say Cyrus DID come to know the Lord? God called Cyrus righteous before Cyrus' birth because Cyrus would come to know the Lord and be obedient. But that doesnt mean that Cyrus was saved without even knowing it.

    And what I meant about "ignoring it" is that you cannot ignore the fact that the Bible clearly states that one cannot believe in Jesus unless he has heard about Jesus.

    You still have not explained your idea of the woman at the well and Nicodemus being saved prior to meeting Jesus. It could be argued that both of them were willing to believe in the Messiah as soon as they found out who He was.....however, even that is simply believing as OT saints had to believe - the future coming of the Messiah of God. This is still being saved through faith after believing what God said about salvation. Neither of these is a case of being saved and not knowing it.
     
  18. NiteShift

    NiteShift New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,034
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is obvious that Cyrus was predestined to become God's servant, and God says of him "I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me....: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me"... These things before Cyrus was born. And Cyrus didn't know of it.

    Predestination also in the case of the Samaritan woman at the well. Jesus already knew her, knew that she was one of His sheep before she had ever heard of Him.

    Actually I didn't mention Nicodemus at all, but Zacchaeus. When Jesus called him down from the tree, He already knew that Zacchhaeus was one of His flock. Seems pretty plain to me, though as I admitted earlier, I am not the Bible-expert that some others here claim to be. And it is also true that any scripture can be shoehorned into a preconceived notion, from either side of a debate.
     
  19. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    0

    Niteshift,

    Jesus knew who EVERYBODY was before they were born! He made each of us and formed us in the womb and knew who and what we would be! That does not mean that any of us them then or us now are ever saved without knowing it.

    You're right of course, you said Zaccheus. I don't know where I got Nicodemus! lol :)
     
  20. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2003
    Messages:
    2,508
    Likes Received:
    3
    Then why wasn't the rich young ruler saved? Why was Zacchaeus saved?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...