Can you define spiritual and physical death?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Roy1, Feb 19, 2004.

  1. Roy1

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    I throw this out to see if anyone can help in the definitions of spiritual death and physical death? How would you define them? Are they the same or is their a difference?
     
  2. Yelsew2

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    There are two spiritual deaths:

    1. Adam sinned, and the result of His sin is the eternal separation of man from God. God is Holy. Holy God and sin cannot co-exist! Thus the human spirit is said to be dead in that it is separated from the source of life.

    However Jesus tells us that the life of the flesh is spirit, without spirit the flesh could not live. Therefore the human spirit is alive in every living human.

    There is but one death of the flesh. When that occures the human spirit is set free from the flesh to face judgment.

    2 The final death of the spirit happens only to those spirits that do not have faith in God. After deeds, both good and bad, are judged, the spirits are separated as sheep from goats, and the spirits without faith are cast into the lake of fire, the second death.
     
  3. Roy1

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    Come on people, where are all the great theologians?

    Let me throw this into the discussion.

    Many people that I have spoken to use the illustration of a dead body to show that there is no response from it regardless of what you do to it. They carry this illustration through to the dead spirit, to show that regardless what God does to it there is no response unless he quickens it first to activate a response to His calling.

    To help me understand this, can anyone help in defining death, what is it? Is spiritual death the same as physical death?

    I believe that a proper definition of death is needed to have any understanding of how the calling of God affects mankind. If spiritual death is similar to physical death, then God must quicken the spirit first for it to respond. If it is not the same as physical death, then there must be some response from it to the calling of God.

    Is death best defined as a separation? The spirit from the body (in physical death) and then the spirit from God for eternity. If so separation does not exclude a response from a calling of God.

    Has anyone any thoughts? :rolleyes:
     
  4. Yelsew2

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    Well if you won't accept Scriptural truth, what answer are you looking for?
     
  5. Roy1

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    Hi Yelsew2,

    Sorry to skip over you reply, I was in a hurry this morning.

    I have no problem with what you say as far as Adams sin has passed on a dead (separated) spirit unto all men. I have no problem with the lake of fire and eternal separation, for those who have rejected Christ.

    To try and make it clear, what I am asking is spiritual death, just separation from God.

    First of all is the spirit separated from God, with the possibility to be quickened, made alive, born again, whilst a person has opportunity in this life.

    Then secondly, to be separated from God at death then in the lake of Fire at the end of time as we know it, without hope of ever being, quickened, made alive, born again?

    In reference to what I said in my last reply. Can it be that the spirit is more than just separated, but dead as in a dead body, with no feeling, no reaction, no movement, no thoughts.


    Does this question make sense to anyone else?

    Sorry if this seems unclear, but it is something that has mulling around in my mind for a few days.

    Roy.
     
  6. Roy1

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    Hi Yelsew2,

    Just another quick thought on your reply. And to sum up what I tried to in the last post. Would it be fare to say that in the two spiritual deaths,
    The first is one with a hope of life.
    The second is one without hope?

    Roy
     
  7. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    What happens when Christ "quickens" us at salvation. Does the quickening come before or after salvation? Does Christ quicken my dead spirit so that I can be saved, or do I accept His free gift of salvation and then He quickens me?

    How "dead" was I before salvation?

    Only asking here folks, no agenda.
     
  8. Yelsew2

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    Roy1, That is how I see it! But the Second death is not a death that continues for eternity, it is a final death, sudden, and yes it really ends life of the spirit that is cast into it. It is the "black-hole" for spirits, everything that goes in, stays in thereafter. You see, when this heaven and earth which contains the lake of fire "passes away", so does the lake of fire. The new heaven and New earth will not include a lake of fire for there will be no evil, there will be no sinners, there will be only obedient, righteous, people, serving and worshipping eternal God for all eternity.

    Once one is cast into the lake of fire, that is an eternity unto itself. spirit life ends. I know there is a scripture that declares that satan and his henchmen will be tormented for ever, but complete and total inhilation is definitly for an eternity, there is no other way to look at it.
     
  9. Yelsew2

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    The spirit that is separated from its source of life is dead only in its current destination which is the Lake of Fire. Human spirit which is what Jesus came to seek and to save, is very much a living spirit in that it is the life of the flesh, and we can see that people live who are not yet redeemed. Human spirit is able to receive the Word of God and either believe or not believe. The spirit that believes is regenerated, the connection to the source of life is reestablished, and that spirit, so long as it remains a believing spirit cannot be separated again from the source. However, if that spirit for whatever reason loses its belief, it once again becomes separated and, I believe, cannot once again be connected a second time.

    The ultimate test comes when the flesh dies, releasing it's hold on the spirit. After the death of the flesh man's spirit is judged for its works while living in the flesh, then it is separated "sheep from goats" with sheep going to Jesus' pasture, while the goats are cast into the lake of fire. Sheep are believers, goats are unbelievers.

    The answer to your question is "Faith cometh by hearing and Hearing by the Word of God"
     
  10. Roy1

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    Sorry Yelsew2,

    Must disagree on inhalation,

    You said that, “Once one is cast into the lake of fire, that is an eternity unto itself. spirit life ends. I know there is a scripture that declares that Satan and his henchmen will be tormented for ever, but complete and total inhalation is definitely for an eternity, there is no other way to look at it.”

    Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever(age upon age, without end.)

    It is not only for Satan, but those that rejected Christ and received the mark of the beast, Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    Since our life with God is eternal, the same must be said of the punishment of the wicked. If God is anything He is consistent, His immutable. If He says my life with Him is eternal, and the unrighteous are punished with everlasting punishment, the same Greek word in the same verse for eternal. Then inhalation has no part in this, it is conscious, blessedness or conscious torment for ever.

    I may not comprehend all that this entails at the present, but I must accept it from God as just.

    There are many more scriptures but this brings out what God is going to do with the wicked.

    Roy.
     
  11. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    If indeed death involves separation then eternal death would seem to necessitate an eternal separation rather than annihilation. This, along with Roy's scriptural references indicate that there is no finality to spiritual death. If there is no beginning as you mention Yelsew, the why is there an end.

    The scripture teaches that eternal life is eternal and in that case the "re-separation" you mention does not seem to be possible.
     
  12. Yelsew2

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    Once again, the point of salvation is the death of the flesh. It is the faith condition at that point that determines eternal life or the second death. So if you have faith when you die this second death, then you pass from death unto life. If you do not have faith at your physical death then the only alternative for you is the second death.

    When something is unalterable, it is final, and the second death is final for it is unalterable. Once you die from the flesh in a state of unbelief, the decision has been made. You are judged and cast into the unalterable second death.

    Now whether or not that second death is linearly speaking a short time or a long time doesn't matter, because it is unalterable.

    The truth is, there is no lake of fire in the new heavens and new earth, for the first heavens and earth have passed away, vanished from before God. If God is everywhere, then where is the lake of fire in the New Heavens and Earth? The answer is they are gone just like this present heavens and earth are gone, never to be seen again.

    Thanks for correctly spelling annihilation, I was without dictionary when I wrote my post, and just guessed at the spelling. Inhalation seems pretty silly in light of the truth.
     
  13. Roy1

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    I have no argument with the second death. But to try and debate whether it is a short time or long is mind boggling. There is no biblical argument as to its length; it is FOREVER, and EVER, ETERNAL, EVERLASTING.

    Now unless you have some other definition of these words to an unspecified length of time, which eventually comes to an end, we must believe God. It is unending and conscious. If Eternal and everlasting are flexible words, then Heaven for the believer is also an unspecified period of time, long or short.

    I must admit, if I were one of those born in the kingdom age and rebelled against Christ at the final rebellion with Satan, I would love to believe that my punishment would be only for a short time, then annihilation. It might make my rebellion a little bit sweeter. Since the final rebellion of Rev 20:7-9 and the creation of the New Heaven and the New Earth chronologically seem to reasonably close. What deterrent is there in a short punishment?

    But since you mention the location of the lake of fire, as side line to the main thought, where would you biblically place it? Now I am not talking about Hell, but the Lake of Fire.

    The main question is still somewhat unresolved. Is death a nothingness, or a consciousness? Initially separated with a hope, then at the second death without hope?

    I hope these comments are thought provoking! They are making me think.

    Roy. ;)
     
  14. Yelsew2

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    I don't see it as a deterrent, but rather as a finality. Deterrance implies that life continues for that which is deterred. The second death implies finality, the discontinuance, or end of that upon which it is imposed.

    Death of the flesh is a finality meaning that the flesh in the form once occupied by spirit is final and that flesh will not again see life. Death of the spirit must mean then that life is not possible beyond death. Death is a finality for that which dies.

    Since the human spirit must be judged for its deeds, it must continue to live after the flesh dies. There can be no corruption in heaven and that is why the flesh cannot enter heaven. The spirit is not subject to the corruption of the flesh in the same manner that flesh corrupts. The spirit is judged for deeds, then all spirits are separated into believers and unbelievers. Believers are sheep, unbelievers are goats. In John 3;18 we are told that believers are not judged, save for deeds, but that unbelievers are judged already by their unbelief.

    Since unbelievers are not judged but pass from death into life everlasting, it is only those who are not believers that are "not found in the book of life" that are cast into the lake of fire. Life everlasting implies that death is final and life ceases for those who are cast into the lake of fire. Otherwise they too have everlasting life in the state of death. We have nothing that provides an example of that happening. Granted, we are limited in the knowledge we may be given regarding the spiritual realm, however, that which the Old Testament prophesied has been revealed in the New Testament. Is there any reason to think that God changed his modus operendi regarding Prophesy in the New Testament? In other words, the Prophesies of the New Testament reveal what is to take place, which in the scope of eternity has already taken place, since it is recorded for us.

    That is why I believe the second death is a finality for the souls of unbelievers. They cease to exist, and that is for all eternity! They will not return for a second chance, nay, they cannot return from the second death because it is final.

    The Lake of fire in my opinion is a figurative place of final death for the evil and all who have no faith. As for a physical or geographic location of the lake of fire, your guess is as good as mine. What I see is when this heaven and earth pass away, so does the lake of fire, because revelation does not reveal the existance of one in the New Heaven and New Earth! However a New Jerusalem is revealed in some detail for us. So if a lake of fire were present it too would have been revealed, don't you think?
     
  15. Roy1

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    Sorry Yeslew,

    It looks our paths will never cross on this matter. I am coming from a literal interpretation of the lake of fire. You say “ The Lake of fire in my opinion is a figurative place of final death for the evil and all who have no faith.”

    The lake of fire is as literal as Heaven, the terminology used of Heaven is used of the lake of fire. It is literal and eternal, conscious blessing or conscious suffering.

    Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Here the beast and the false prophet have been tormented for one thousand years, and then Satan is cast into the Lake along with them. They are then said to be tormented for ever and ever. I agree that there is no way of escape from the lake of fire. Neither is there any release. Satan was bound in the bottomless pit, but he was released for a little season. Note that it was a release not an escape, no matter what He could have tried he could not escape. He was bound in that place by the authority of God.

    So shall it be in the lake of fire, the authority of God shall bind them there, with no release for all of eternity. Also note this, Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    “These both were cast alive into a lake of f ire burning with brimstone.” They were alive and still conscious one thousand years later.


    Roy.
     
  16. Yelsew2

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    Perhaps we won't meet on this, but I did say "in my opinion". Meaning that I have no practical Knowledge on the matter.

    The only image that 'Lake of fire' brings to mind is that of the cauldron of a volcano, a lake of burning sulfur, fire and brimstone. No life form on earth can survive being thrown into, that is, removed from the place of life sustinance, into the cauldron of a volcano where no life survives.

    But then we are speaking of spirits being cast into the lake of fire, and spirit is impervious to mass in any of mass's forms, and is intended to be everlasting. So Yes in my opinion the lake of fire is a figurative place where everything evil and unbelieving are cast in a singular finality.

    It is a place where the death of those cast into it is eternal, in that those cast in, are never again for the rest of eternity to come out of it, thus to those who are living eternally alive need never be concerned about those who were cast therein.
    Eschatologically speaking, your understanding has no greater merit than mine. Neither of us has a complete enough picture of the details of the lake of fire to know. So it is a matter of conjecture. It is however, FINAL!
     
  17. Roy1

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    Yelsew,
    you are correct, there is no doubt that the lake of fire is final. We can agree fully on that point.

    You say,
    However, I believe that God is clear in what He is saying. If we use clear, literal, grammatical, historical, INTERPRETATION, the figurative picture you describe does not fit what is being said. However if we apply the same reasoning to Heaven, then Heaven is figurative, not literal.

    Rather that dealing with the second death, the initial death, the death or separation of the spirit, before salvation is an intriguing one. How dead was it before salvation? How did a dead spirit respond to the calling of God? Did He quicken it first so that it may respond with a positive yes? Or was it free to choose? Does that go for all men, or just the elect?

    Roy. :confused:
     
  18. Me2

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    the lake of fire is not something that destroys. it is something that illuminates and allows us to understand without error. if evil is placed into it. evil is not destroyed. it is veiwed and understood for the reality for which it represents.

    evil is never destroyed. it is overcome by understanding its weakness when its reality is judged alongside truth. much like mans memories of evil. they will never be destroyed. they are covered over. they are viewed alongside the corresponding truth that defines the errors worth.

    spiritual death is the covering over of error. It is judged alongside truth. correctly aligning error in its proper prespective in view of its corresponding truth.

    when Jesus states that he has defeated death and even fills all. It means that the truth he represents covers over all evil and surely outweights the value or worth of the error.

    when something is said to be eternally being destroyed. it is eternally being evaluated for its weakness compared to its corresponding opposite.

    all men contain evil and good. being eternally judged means that we are to be eternally evaluating the meaning or reality of both evil and Good.

    Judgment in a sense can be viewed in that all die and then the "evaluation".
    meaning we are forever in a cycle of repeated occurrances of experiencing the addition of our characters and then the process of reflection or evaluation of its meaning as opposed to its opposite.
     
  19. Yelsew2

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    I previously answered that quest in my first post on this topic. Here it is again,
    You obviously are intent on proving that a human spirit which is "born dead" must be quickened by God before it can respond to God. Well since you won't accept the truth, Just Go right ahead and prove it!
     
  20. Yelsew2

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    Then why is it the final destination of EVIL and UNBELIEF?

    Why is there nothing revealed in scripture of anyone who was cast into the lake of fire ever being released from it?

    Why is it called the FINAL JUDGMENT!
    Why are we told to "Overcome evil (repent)" while living this life IF that is something that is coming later?

    My response to the rest of your post is that you drink too much Chickory!
     

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