Can you help me understand some very troubling verses?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Osterloh, Jun 28, 2014.

  1. Osterloh

    Osterloh
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    James was writing to Christians of the Jewish race:
    James 1
    12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved,
    he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
    13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”;
    for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
    14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
    15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
    and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
    16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
    17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from
    the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
    18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth,
    that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.
    19 So then, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath;
    20 for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God.
    21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness,
    and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
    22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

    I see this passage saying:
    1:12 those who love Jesus will endure temptation and receive the crown of life.
    1:12-15 giving in to temptation and practicing sin disqualifies one from receiving the crown of life.
    1:14-15 giving in to temptation and practicing sin results in death (eternal death, ref: Rom 5:12-20, 6:23).
    1:21 getting rid of sin and receiving the word can save one’s soul.

    Jesus was writing to Christians in Smyrna:
    Revelation 2
    10 Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
    11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
    He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.

    I see this passage saying:
    2:10 He who endures with his faith until death will receive the crown of life.
    Eternal life is promised to persecuted believers who endure with their faith until death (ref: Mark 13:13).
    Therefore, because of Mark 13:13, etc. the crown of life means eternal life.
    2:11 The second death is eternal death (ref: Rev 20:14, 21:8).
    2:11 If one overcomes (by doing 2:10), he will not experience the second death (eternal death),
    but instead he will receive the crown of life (eternal life).

    Maybe there’s space to include this …
    “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom of heaven
    but he who does the will of My Father in heaven … I will declare to them,
    ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ ” (Matt 7:21-23)

    To get into the kingdom of heaven one must do God’s will.
    Since all of Scripture was inspired by God, all commands and instructions are God’s will.
    So, it appears to me there is a lot of obedience required to get into heaven.

    I was taught eternal security. Was I taught incorrectly?

    Thank you in advance, Doug Osterloh
     
  2. Winman

    Winman
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    Welcome to Baptist Board Doug.

    Well, let me ask you, how many Christians have you known that have stopped sinning since they were saved? I certainly haven't, have you?

    Nevertheless, look how many persons are saved.

    Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    I think you would agree that we have never met a perfectly obedient Christian, yet there are going to be millions, perhaps billions of saved persons in heaven.

    The moment you trust Jesus you are baptized into his body. You literally die with him to sin. Sin is not your master any more, he does not own you, you are free from sin and the law that held you bound. You are now the servant of righteousness, or Jesus Christ himself. You are now under grace and not under the law.

    Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
    4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
    6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
    7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
    8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
    9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
    10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
    11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
    13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
    14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

    OK, to understand this chapter, you have to understand that both "sin" and "righteousness" are being personified. Paul in this chapter is speaking of sin as our master. The moment we sin, we join or sell ourselves to sin (Rom 7:14, Luk 15:15, Jhn 8:34)

    Now that you have sinned, sin is your master and owns you until death. That is the ONLY escape from sin's bondage.

    When we trust Jesus we are baptized into his body. When Jesus died to sin on the cross, we died with him (vs. 3-6). We are a dead man now, sin no longer has any hold over us, we are free from sin. And as Jesus rose from the dead, we shall also be raised from the dead.

    When we belonged to sin we were under the law. We had to obey the law or the penalty was death. But again, we are now dead to sin and to the law. Now we are under grace. And the gift of Jesus Christ is eternal life.

    15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
    19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
    20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
    21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
    22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
    23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Eternal Security is correct, if you have believed on Jesus, you have passed from death to life, and shall not come into condemnation (Jhn 5:24). You no longer belong to sin as your master, you have been made free from sin. You are no longer under the law, but grace.

    What we must "do" to be saved is believe on Jesus. We must trust, depend, or rely upon him only to save us.

    Those persons in Matthew 7 called Jesus "Lord", in fact it is emphasized they called Jesus "Lord", and they did many wonderful works, yet they were not saved. Why? Because they trusted in themselves that they were righteous. They boasted of all the many wonderful works they did in Jesus's name. They were not trusting in Jesus alone to save them, they were trusting in their own works. They had never trusted Jesus and were never baptized into his body. Jesus never "knew them". They were still under sin and under the law.

    The same is true of the Pharisee in Luke 18. He believed in God, and he was extremely obedient to the law, yet he was completely lost. Paul as a Pharisee said he was as touching the righteousness which is in the law, "blameless".

    Phi 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
    4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
    5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
    6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

    Paul was "blameless" touching the righteousness which is in the law. He was as obedient to the law as a man could be, yet he was utterly lost. That is because he had sinned, and was a servant of sin. He belonged to sin (Rom 7:14) and was held captive by it (Rom 7:23). There was no escape except death. When he trusted Jesus he died to sin and was raised to new life with Jesus.

    So, if you do not want to trust Jesus to save you, then you are still under sin, and under the law. You must perfectly perform to be saved. But if you have trusted Jesus you are dead to sin and the law, and have been made free from it.
     
    #2 Winman, Jun 28, 2014
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  3. DHK

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    True, his audience was primarily Jewish Christians.
    There is nothing that disqualifies the believer from salvation. When one is born into God's family he cannot be "unborn." The theme of the entire book is "practical Christian living." It is not about salvation. It is about how to live your Christian life on a day to day basis in a practical and victorious way.
    On the path of the Christian life there are rewards to be earned. One of those rewards is the crown of life. I don't know what translation you have used, but in the KJV it reads:

    James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
    --The word tried means tested. It is speaking of the trials of life that we go through. It goes with the word "temptation" which also means "testing" or "trials." Then the verse makes more sense. When the believer endures the trials he goes through he will receive a crown of life. The Lord has promised this crown to those that love him. Note, those that love him will suffer for his sake and endure such trials for Him. There is no loss of salvation here, only reward (or possible loss or reward according to 1Cor.3:11-15).
    Mark 13:13 refers only to the Jews, and only at a specific time still in the future. I live in Canada. Look how far this is out of context. The next verse says:
    Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
    --I have no intention of fleeing to Judea, especially from Canada. Does it make sense? No. This is speaking of the Great Tribulation to come, and after that Christ will come for the Jews. I believe the rapture of the Christians will take place before that. The verse doesn't apply to me therefore.

    In the same sense Jesus was writing to the church in Smyrna. That church, as Jesus described, was undergoing great persecution. Those who endured to the end (a physical persecution) would receive a reward. They would not lose their salvation. They would receive a special reward for being persecuted for Christ's sake.
    Remember the words of Jesus on the Sermon on the Mount:
    Matthew 5:11,12: "Blessed are ye when ye shall be persecuted for my name's sake..."
    Previous to this Jesus said to his disciples: "Beware of false teachers...You shall know them by their fruit." The fruit is their doctrine. Those who teach doctrine contrary to the doctrine of Christ shall in no way enter into heaven (2John 9-11). Those who do the will of the Father are those who have a right relationship with Christ.
    Here is verse 23 again:
    Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    --The important part here is "I never knew you." I never had a personal relationship with you. You can practice all the good works you want but if you do not know Christ as your Lord and Saviour it is all in vain. Jesus is speaking of false teachers. Read the context, the verses before he gets to this point.
    Perhaps.
     
  4. Osterloh

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    Winman,

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
    I thought we now are to take care of our sins via 1 John 1:9.
    In Romans 6 I see Paul warning if we continue sinning we receive eternal death.
    I see 3 warnings about it in a span of just a few verses.
    He was writing to believers who knew all of this, sin results in eternal death,
    so he was warning them about it while also reminding them.
    And he says things like we are servants of righteousness, but obviously,
    they were not, “so now yield your members servants to righteousness” (6:19).
    I think it is obvious that those persons in Matt 7:21 were disqualified
    because they did not do the will of God.
    It seems to me right now that we need to have faith and trust
    and good works and repentance to make it through to eternal life.
     
  5. Winman

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    He is not warning them of death, he is showing them they have been made free from sin and death.

    Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    Yes, these Romans had yielded themselves to sin and were the servants of sin. Sin was their master, they were "sold under sin" here.

    But even while they were servants to sin they obeyed the gospel from their heart.

    "Being then" made FREE from sin, they became servants of righteousness, which is God.

    Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

    These Romans are not servants of sin any longer, they do not belong to sin. They are no longer under the law, but grace. They have been made free from sin and death. Now the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    You do not belong to sin any more. He is not going to pay you a wage. You now belong to God, you have been purchased and redeemed by the blood of Christ, and his gift is eternal life.

    Paul IS NOT warning Christians of death here, just the opposite.
     
    #5 Winman, Jun 28, 2014
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  6. Osterloh

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    Of course, they have been made free from that bondage- they don't have to sin.
    But they can choose to and that's what I see.
    Paul's saying they don't have to sin so you'd better stop or else.
    Paul's saying they choose who their master is going to be.
    Paul's saying they choose if they will be slaves of sin or slaves of obedience.
    I already proved that Paul was kidding when he said they were slaves of righteousness.
    I see Paul telling them what they actually are and what they are actually doing are 2 different things entirely.
    And what they are actually doing will result in eternal death.
    Rom 6:23 part 1 applies to everyone and overrides part 2.
    Actually both covenants repeatedly teach sin results in physical and spiritual death.
    Hundreds of verses in each covenant.
    What's that about God does not change?
    He never changed the old covenant, He just made it new and better.
    This is what I see perched on top of this mountain with my 20x80 binos.
     
    #6 Osterloh, Jun 28, 2014
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  7. Osterloh

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    I never knew (approved of) you because you did not do God's will.
    One part of God's will is to have a personal relationship with both Father and Son (John 17:3).
     
  8. Winman

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    You have the wrong concept of what it means to be a servant or slave. You are not alone, MOST people have this same wrong concept.

    Being a servant of sin does not mean you are compelled to sin. A slave can disobey his master, a slave can even run away from his master. Nevertheless, by law the master owns you and can send out deputies to capture you and bring you back. You are his PROPERTY. You belong to him, and his one wage is death.

    You no longer belong to sin, now Jesus himself is your master. He owns you, and his gift to you is eternal life.

    Read Romans 6 carefully and you will see what I am saying is true;

    Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    Is Paul teaching that a person is a slave of sin and is therefore compelled to sin? NO, Paul says that to whom ye "yield" yourselves, his servants ye are to whom you obey.

    You do not sin because you are a slave or servant to sin as many falsely teach, you are a slave or a servant to sin because you choose to sin.

    And this is EASY to observe in life. Nobody is born with a Marlboro cigarette in his mouth, addicted to nicotine. No, it is when a person freely chooses to smoke and continues to smoke that they become a slave addicted to tobacco.

    The same with drinking, no one is born with a bottle of Jack Daniels in their hand. It is when you freely choose to drink and continue to drink that you become addicted.

    So, this is a false teaching that we sin because we are slaves to sin, Jesus said the exact opposite, we are slaves when we choose to commit sin.

    Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

    Read this verse carefully. Did Jesus say we sin because we are servants to sin? NO, he said whoever sins is a servant to sin. The order is very important here, it is the exact same thing Paul is saying in Romans 6:16.

    But note that Paul shows we have both option and ability to do right. He says "Whether" of sin unto death, "or" of obedience unto righteousness (Jesus).

    We are not compelled to sin or do right, we have the option and ability to do either.

    Now note in vs. 17 that Paul says while these persons "were" servants of sin, they have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine delivered them. They heard and obeyed or believed the gospel when they WERE servants to sin.

    And now note in verse 18 that Paul says after they have believed, Being "then" made free from sin, ye "became" a servant of righteousness.

    This is important, it proves that unregenerate sinners have the ability to obey the gospel, and that when they do, "then" are they made free from sin and become the servants of righteousness.

    So, nobody is compelled to sin because they are a slave of sin. Even a slave of sin can obey the gospel and be made free from sin.

    Total Inability is utterly false doctrine easily refuted by scripture.
     
    #8 Winman, Jun 28, 2014
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  9. Osterloh

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    Paul explains often that ALL unregenerate men sin, etc.
    ALL unregenerate men sin no matter what, even if they are able to NOT sin.
    But, it is possible for the Christian to NOT sin because he has a new nature and the Holy Spirit.
    That's why the new covenant is much better than the old.

    Romans 6- I made it very clear that the Roman Christians were told to choose sin or obedience.
     
    #9 Osterloh, Jun 28, 2014
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  10. DHK

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    It doesn't say "approved." The word is "to know."
    Jesus didn't know them. He would have approved of their works. Who wouldn't have? What was wrong with them?

    Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    Are not those good works? They did "many wonderful works," and they did them in the name of Christ! What was wrong? Why did Christ say to them:

    Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    1. I never knew you.
    2. Depart from me.
    3. You work iniquity (sin).

    They were outwardly good works. Christ calls it sin. Why?
    Because he didn't "know" them. They didn't have a personal relationship with them. They were not born again. Jesus had said to Nicodemus:

    John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    A person can call Jesus Lord, do good works, but unless they are born again, they cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    They had no relationship with Christ; they were not born again (were not regenerated).
     
  11. Reformed

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    Doug,

    Good questions.

    It is helpful to define what we mean by "eternal security". If a person professes faith in Christ, are they eternally secure regardless of how they may live their life after they make their decision? I think this is what John is getting at when he wrote to the church at Smyrna in Revelation 2, and what Matthew wrote in chapter 7 of his gospel.

    If a person has truly come to faith in Christ, then nothing, and no one, can take their salvation from them. Jesus said in John 10:28, "and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." Four chapters earlier we read this in John 6:35-40, "Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

    While the salvation of those who are truly in Christ is eternally secure, not everyone who claims to be a believer is. As the old saying goes, "Not every professor is a possessor." It is required of Christians that they show evidence of their changed life. John the Baptist said as much to the ruling Jews who came to him to be baptized:

    Matthew 3:7-10 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

    You quoted James 1 in your OP. Further on in James' epistle he writes:

    James 2:14-17 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

    James did not say that a person can lose their salvation, he said that a claim to faith must be accompanied by works.

    Paul says it a different way:

    Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

    Jesus Christ created us for good works. Good works are the evidence of our salvation. When they are not inherently present in a professed believer's life, then that person needs to beware of the many warnings given in scripture. You cited two of them in Matthew and John. Paul plainly told the Corinthians that they needed to examine their claim to faith:

    2 Corinthians 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?

    Doug, do not let anyone scare you into thinking you salvation can be lost. Instead examine your life in the light of scripture. Is there evidence in your life that you are a new creature as 2 Corinthians 5:17 tells us? Do you have new affections that give you a desire to be with God's people and to read his word? Do you grieve over abiding sin in your life? Do you constantly battle between the deeds of the flesh and fruit of the Spirit? Believe it or not, those battles are evidence that the Spirit is working in you to conform you more into the image of the Son.

    Lastly, it helps to understand some of the historical context. The churches in Asia Minor were experiencing intense persecution. As long as professing the name of Christ did not cause one to suffer loss they were willing to self-identify as Christians. Persecution has a way of pruning the church of impostors. When John wrote, "those who endure until the end will be saved", it was written as a warning to those who would abandon their professed faith. I write professed faith because that is all it was - professed.
     
    #11 Reformed, Jun 28, 2014
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  12. Osterloh

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    Of course this is all true, but why do you insist on ignoring the general reason
    which covers everything in the new covenant: doing the will of Father God in heaven?
     
  13. Winman

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    And just what are you supposed to do about it if you are not saved in Calvinism? NOTHING. In Calvinism you must hope God regenerates you. If God chooses to pass you by, no amount of self examination will do a thing to help you.

    This scripture you quoted is nonsensical if Calvinsim is true. These verses to examine one's self only make sense if a person can act on them and do something about it to make CERTAIN they are saved. You cannot possibly do that if God passes you by in Calvinism.
     
  14. Winman

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    And what is the Father's will?

    Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    The Jews asked Jesus directly what works they should do to do the works of God. Did Jesus tell them to take up their cross and follow him? Did Jesus tell them they have to do good works? NOPE.

    Jesus simply told them to believe on him, that is, to depend and rely upon Jesus only to save them.

    Jesus does not need your help to save you.
     
  15. Osterloh

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    Thanks Reformed for your input.

    Believers (not imposters) in a pre-tribulation rapture will be sorely disappointed
    when the horrendous persecution of the great tribulation comes!

    This will result in the falling away (apostacy) mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2.

    Either of these 2 things will cause unprepared persecuted Christians to lose their salvation in the days ahead:
    (a) the falling way from the faith as per Mark 13:13, (b) the taking of the mark of the beast.
    You won't have long to wait before this happens!

    BTW, verses agreeing with Mark 13:13 (and your John above) prove OSAS is false.
     
    #15 Osterloh, Jun 28, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 28, 2014
  16. Reformed

    Reformed
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    Well, I strongly disagree with your opinion that a Christian can lose his salvation, but I will not debate it with you. It seems as though you started this thread with an agenda, not a honest attempt to "understand some very troubling verses". I'll leave you to your thread. Have a good evening.
     
    #16 Reformed, Jun 28, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 28, 2014
  17. Osterloh

    Osterloh
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    The verse does not say "This is the only work of God".

    Everything has a beginning and everything is often not revealed in the beginning.
    This is the case with the simple gospel presented to simple people.
    The beginning is simply believe!
    Please allow the babies to first take their first little baby steps.
    Then the Holy Spirit can gradually reveal spiritual Truth.
    And there is more and more and more and ...
     
  18. Osterloh

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    Sorry, but I never said that or did you throw an extra not in there.
     
  19. Winman

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    Well, you could add anything to that you would like couldn't you?

    Jesus didn't say we have to jump up and down and shout Orangutan!! to do the will of God either, does that mean that's what we have to do?

    Some folks have some mighty strange logic I tell ya.
     
  20. DHK

    DHK
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    The context of Matthew 7, including that verse, is "false teachers."
    False teachers do not "do the will of the Father."
    Having said that, I am not sure what your question is.
     

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