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Featured Can you help me understand some very troubling verses?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Osterloh, Jun 28, 2014.

  1. Osterloh

    Osterloh New Member

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    Yes, Jesus deals with false prophets in Matt 7:15-20 and verse 20 ends it.

    Then we have our new paragraph starting in 7:21, and 7:21-23 is a stand-alone paragraph.
    His point is fully made in verse 21 about WHO knows God and goes to heaven.
    The other 2 verses merely add dramatic effect. sorry not lol
     
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    In the original Greek there are no paragraph markings, not even chapter markings. They were put there much later by translators. There is no change of subject until chapter 8:1 where it says specifically that he ended his sayings, came down from the mountain and encountered some lepers.
    Up until that time he continues his teaching on false teachers right to the end of the chapter.

    The false teachers will appear before him in the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev.20:11-15), where Christ will say unto them: "I never knew you...Your names are not written in the book of life...Depart from me..." Compare Scripture with Scripture.

    He then compares his teachings to the teachings of the false teachers.
    The one who builds with the teachings of Christ builds as if he is building a house on a rock. The Scriptures throughout teach that Christ is our Rock. His teachings are solid and true.

    He compares the teachings of the false teachers to the one who is building on a foundation of sand. They are shifty and deceitful, and the house will collapse like a house of cards. It will never stand. False doctrine never does. All will be made manifest in that Great Day of Judgment.

    True believers will not see that day. They will be present at the Judgment Seat of Christ where they will receive reward done according to their works as a believer. They cannot lose their salvation. Only the unsaved will be present at the Great White Throne Judgement. Only the false teachers are those that he is referring to in verses 21ff.
     
  3. Osterloh

    Osterloh New Member

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    God knows where I would be allowed to back to - to begin showing where "His sayings" began!
    But the NJKV has these topic headings within chapter 7:
    Do Not Judge
    Keep Asking, Seeking, Knocking
    The Narrow Way
    You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
    I Never Knew You
    Build on the Rock


    IMO, His sayings began with the Beatitudes in chapter 5,
    and He gave many different sayings/teaching until chapter 8.
     
    #23 Osterloh, Jun 30, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2014
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The Sermon on the Mount includes chapters 5,6,7.
    In it Jesus takes his disciples and teaches them. So it is directed primarily to them, though a great crowd gathers and listens to his teaching.

    Matthew 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
    2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
    --That is the setting.
    Throughout these chapters his teaching revolves around the Kingdom, but with many subtopics. He first introduces the Beatitudes which he lists from verses 3 to 12, and that is all.
    Matthew chapter 5 has 48 verses where a number of different topics are covered; the same with chapter six.
    In chapter seven, verses 1-5 speak about judging.
    Verses 6-12 cover topics relating to asking, giving, praying, etc.
    Verses 13,14 is a warning about choosing the right path.
    Then from verse 15 to the end of the chapter he speaks of false teachers and their teaching. Remember his instruction is primarily to his disciples.

    What verse in that passage is not about false teachers and their doctrine?
     
  5. Osterloh

    Osterloh New Member

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    Matt 7:15-20 deals with false prophets, with v.20 ending the topic.

    That's why translators start a new topic with a new paragraph @ v.21.
    Matt 7:21-23 refers to anyone ... not false prophets.

    It is not only false prophets who do NOT do the will of Father God re: v.21!

    Matt 7:24-27 refers to anyone again ... who does the will of God, referring back to v.21.
     
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You are entitled to your opinion, but it is wrong.

    Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    --The fruit of them (referring to false teachers) is doctrine. We know the false teachers by what they teach.

    Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    --This is one passage, one scene. Verse 21 cannot be separated from verses 22 and 23.

    In John 6, the will of the Father is "to believe on Him that whom the Father hath sent."
    John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    Many call Jesus: "Lord, Lord."
    --They will not enter the Kingdom of God.
    Many will do wonderful works, and they will do them in the name of Jesus.
    --They will not enter the Kingdom of God. Their works are as filthy rags in God's sight. Good works are meaningless without a relationship with Christ.
    --Christ will say to them: "I never knew you, depart from me."
    In spite of good works, they will end up in hell. Though they thought they were doing the will of the Father they will go to hell.

    If you do not know Christ as Lord and Saviour of your life; if you do not have a personal relationship with him, your good works are meaningless. You cannot do "the works of the Father." It is impossible for you to do any good work. God will not even look upon them.
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    OSAS does not survive the text of Romans 11 for "you who stand only by your faith.. you should fear for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you... but He is able to graft them in again if they do not continue in unbelief".

    OSAS does not survive Matt 18 - full forgiveness - revoked.

    OSAS does not survive Ezek 18 - salvation revoked.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. Osterloh

    Osterloh New Member

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    So you are promising me that I wuz definitely taught incorrectly?
    (Yes I can read/understand English)
     
  9. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    These are the conclusions of very bad exegetical interpretation of the passages named. I'm sure you have heard the arguments before. You choose to reject them. So be it. We who believe will not be swayed.
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    indeed.

    And you know what they say "there is no limit to the bad doctrine that can be had by ignoring the texts that refute it".

    OSAS only survives chapters like Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" by ignoring the details and replacing them with what does not exist in the chapter.


    in Christ,

    bob
     
    #30 BobRyan, Jul 5, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 5, 2014
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Here are examples of texts that OSAs simply does not survive



    Matt 18
    32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
    33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
    34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
    35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


    35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''
    This application should not be so foreign to the objective unbiased non-OSAS Bible reader who has accepted basic teaching the Gospel of Matthew regarding the Lord's Prayer.

    Matt 6

    12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
    13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
    14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

    15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

    Rom 11
    13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
    14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them.

    15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

    16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
    17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

    18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

    20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
    21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

    22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
    23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    Gal 5
    4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
    [FONT=&quot]

    [/FONT]
     
  12. Osterloh

    Osterloh New Member

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    You who believe in OSAS will not be swayed.
    Congratulations, you have been deceived by Satan and your church.

    Most Christians have been perplexed about the 2 different types of salvation verses:
    Type-1 offers unconditional salvation to unbelievers: just believe in Jesus and the gospel.
    Type-2 offers conditional salvation to the believers out of Type-1, that is …
    they must walk righteously “in the Spirit”, work on ridding themselves of sin,
    and be overcomers (there are several requirements involved).

    IMO, the 2 types somehow must fit together and make sense.
    This is my explanation …

    Type-1 verses make it easy for a person to respond to God’s call, believe, and be born-again.
    The new believer receives the Holy Spirit, and begins to learn some spiritual truths.
    But, his church teaches him that he is eternally secure: once saved always saved.
    Hopefully, in time he is taught the meaning of the Type-2 verses, and accepts them as truth.

    Jesus warns believers in Luke 14:
    27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
    28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost,
    whether he has enough to finish it —
    29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him,
    30 saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish’ …
    33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.


    The warnings in the NT are endless about what is required to inherit eternal life,
    and that salvation is a life-long process, which must be successfully overcome.
    Actually it's all about the condition of the heart, i.e. having the right heart attitude,
    and God sees everyones heart.
     
    #32 Osterloh, Jul 6, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 6, 2014
  13. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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  14. Osterloh

    Osterloh New Member

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    Obviously the good revster never sat down and counted the cost.
    He still thinks he's saved no matter if he finished the race or not.
    Sad.
     
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