Can you lose your salvation?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by defenderofthefaith, Nov 17, 2008.

  1. defenderofthefaith

    defenderofthefaith
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    Can you lose your salvation?
    I believe you can and this is my arguement....

    (What the following verses are arguing against is the "once saved, always saved" doctrine and the doctrine that once you are saved Jesus enters your heart and makes you not want to sin anymore and if you do sin and fall away you were "never saved in the first place".)

    1 Corinthians 10:12 {KJV}
    Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”

    (Why would Paul command this to the Church of Corinth (those saved) if it was impossible to fall?)

    Hebrews 3:12 {KJV}
    Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.”

    (Firstly, Paul calls them brethren and this implies that they are brothers in Christ (saved). Secondly, how could this heart of unbelief depart from God if it was never with God? Obviously the person was with God (saved) and then had a heart of unbelief and departed from the living God (lost).)

    2 Peter 2:20-22 {KVJ}
    For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
    - For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
    - But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


    (Perfect verse to prove that someone can “escape the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” and they are saved but then they are “again entangled therein, and overcome” by the pollutions of the world and the “latter end is worse with them than the beginning” – Peter is saying that it’d be better for someone to not even know the way to righteousness than for him to become saved and then “turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them” and become “again entangled therein and overcome”!!)
    1.) They had escaped the defilements of the world, 2.) They were again entangled therein and overcome, 3.) The last state is worse than the first.
    How could the last state (AFTER they were saved) be worse than the first (BEFORE they were saved)? Obviously a once saved Christian can so sin to be in a worse state than before they were saved.

    John 15:2-6 {KJV}
    Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
    - Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
    - Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
    - I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
    - If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned
    .”

    (“Every branch in me” and “ye are the branches” – this shows that saved Christians are the branches because it says “in me” so your IN Christ. So those branches that are in Christ (saved) and “beareth not fruit” “he taketh away” but what happens then? “Men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned”!! But if every branch (Christian) that is in Christ is “once saved always saved” why does he take the branches that do not bear fruit and cast them into the fire and burn them??)

    Matthew 13:41-42 {KJV}
    The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth
    .”

    (The Son of man (Jesus Christ) will send forth his angels and gather “them which do iniquity” “out of his kingdom” – how do you get into Christ’s kingdom? You are saved by his blood! But not only will these saved Christians that do iniquity be gathered out of his kingdom but he will also “cast them into a furnace of fire” where “there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth” – does that sound like heaven to you?)

    1 Timothy 4:1 {KJV}
    Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;”

    (This verse contradicts the belief that you can’t leave the faith and the argument that once you are saved, you no longer want to sin. It clearly says that “some shall depart from the faith” but to be in the faith you must be saved! So you depart from the faith because they were “giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils” – but wait! I thought once you were saved you no longer would give heed to sins and temptations?)

    1 Timothy 5:12-13 {KJV}
    Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
    And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.”


    (Having DAMNATION, because they have cast off their first faith! What a statement!! But again, they cast of their faith – but according to “once saved, always saved” you still have salvation even if you cast off your faith, but Paul says they have damnation for casting off their first faith!”)

    Galatians 5:4 {KJV}
    Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”

    ("Ye are fallen from grace" implies that they once were IN grace (saved) and to argue against that is to say that they fell from something they were never in (which is impossible). So they were in grace (saved), tried to justify themselves by the law and by doing this they fell from grace (lost).)

    Revelation 22:19 {KJV}
    And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book
    (Revelation 20:15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.)

    (Rev. 20:15 says that if you were not found written in the book of life you are cast into the lake of fire (hell) so in order not to be cast into hell you must be written in the book of life and to be written into the book of life you must be saved - BUT if you "take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall away his part out of the book of life" therefore you are lost and now found written in the book. It's all simple logic and the verses explain themselves.)

    Luke 8:13 {KJV}
    They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away

    ("Recieve the word (the gospel) with joy" (saved) and "for a while believe" but then "in time of temptation fall away" (lost).)

    Now, you can either:
    1) Agree with the Biblical verses and maybe add a few verses if you'd like...
    or
    2) Disagree with what the Bible says and try to argue against me and show me different arguements that you believe support the "once saved, always saved" doctrine.

    But PLEASE do not just come here and post short replies just telling me I am wrong, stupid, ignorrant, ect....please come here and give me verses from the Holy Bible to support any arguement you want to send against me.
     
  2. annsni

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    Why is it that new posters seem to feel that we need to be taught something???

    Man, I learned when first coming on a new board, it is proper etiquette to atleast introduce yourself first.
     
  3. olivia529

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    I think the debate regarding eternal security is one of the most interesting of all because I think there are valid scriptural arguments to be made both ways. And it splits the "Bible-alone" groups right down the middle as far as I can tell.

    I tend to believe that you can lose your salvation, and that the verses used by those who support osas are speaking to the faithfulness of God in our salvation.

    And hi, Ann.:wavey:
     
  4. billwald

    billwald
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    Unless one is planning to sin, what is the need to know?
     
  5. defenderofthefaith

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    Ann:
    Hi, my board name is Defender of the Faith - and that is what I plan to do. Defend the Faith.


    If you'd like, I could post many of the verses used by the followers of the "once saved, always saved" doctrine and explain how their misinterepting these verses.
     
  6. webdog

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    So salvation depends on us to maintain it, and God to give it initially? I guess that makes us more powerful than God, to take something away that God gives us :rolleyes:
     
  7. defenderofthefaith

    defenderofthefaith
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    That makes no sense at all....salvation is a gift we must accept and maintain...but if we reject the gift (salvation) and return to the filth of the world - then you lose the gift and God is simply waiting for you to re-accept that gift.

    Did you not read any of the verses I gave you or do you try to respond with some type of witty response to try to make me look like a fool when you yourself can't give me any Biblical backing for your belief.
     
  8. Bible-boy

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    In answer to the question in the thread title:

    No.:wavey:
     
  9. olivia529

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    I guess it depends on when you think salvation occurs. Some don't believe that salvation occurs until you're judged and have been made perfect, so I guess they would say you can't lose your salvation.:)
     
  10. Marcia

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    1 Cor 10.12 has nothing to do with losing salvation; it's about fallling into temptation. Why did you post that one?

    Many of the others discuss either those who were never in the faith to begin with or don't have to do with salvation.

    I've read these before and seen the responses to them but don't have time or inclination to do that now, especially since I have a very bad headache.

    However, I would like to know what you think John 10.28 means?
    and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

    Also, what does it mean to be sealed with the Holy Spirit?

    1. 2 Corinthians 1:22
      who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
    2. Ephesians 1:13
      In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
    3. Ephesians 4:30
      Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
    In 1 Cor. 22, "pledge" means a promise. When we are sealed, that's it. We can't unseal the "seal."
     
  11. Bible-boy

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    I’ve only got time tonight to respond to one verse you referenced in the OP. I’ll address more later.

    Context, Context, Context. If you pull a single verse out of the Scriptures you can make the Bible say just about anything you want it to say. Verses one through eleven of that passage make it clear (especially in verse eight) that the “falling” of verse twelve is speaking about physical death. The Israelites who died because they took their eyes off of image of the serpent staff and looked at the actual serpents on the ground were bitten and died. They did not enter the Promised Land. However, this does not imply or necessitate that they did not enter Abraham’s bosom. Likewise, if you finish reading the rest of the chapter Paul also makes it clear that he is warning the Corinthian believers to flee from idolatry, which was a problem for the young believers in Corinth. He flat out tells them in verses nineteen through twenty-two exactly what he is talking about. The text never mentions salvation or losing one’s salvation. You have to approach the text with the presupposition that one can lose one’s salvation and import that meaning onto the text to arrive at such an interpretation. The text talks about not drinking from both the cup of Christ and the cup of demons and not eating from the table of Christ and from the table of demons. Why? Because God is a jealous God and we are not stronger than Him (v. 22). Rather than share us with demons He will simply cause us to die to remove us from the situation. However, this doesn’t imply or necessitate that we somehow lose our salvation.

    So the problem with your interpretation of 1 Cor. 10:12 is your hermeneutical approach. You came to this text with a presupposition that one can lose one’s salvation, imported that meaning onto the text, failed acknowledge the context of the surrounding text, and ultimately failed to allow the Bible to speak for itself on this matter.

    Finally, can/do you read NT Greek?
     
    #11 Bible-boy, Nov 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2008
  12. Havensdad

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    Paul is warning about pride. But even in this context, notice his careful wording. He does not say "Let Him who stands"; he says "Let him who THINKS He stands". He is clearly insinuating the idea that those who fall, were never in fact standing in the first place.

    No. Wrong. Paul is speaking to Jews. Therefore He calls them brethren. This is a letter designed to be read to a congregation. Jesus makes it VERY clear, that there would be "tares" among the wheat. Paul was aware of this.

    Notice the problem with these people. It is there heart. They have a "heart of unbelief", i.e. they are not saved. Without "pistis" there is no salvation.

    You are assuming the two states are "saved" and "unsaved". Yet there is no where in these verses the word for "saved". Nor are these people said to have had "faith" NOR have they "repented". They have "become enlightened" (gained knowledge), and "escaped pollution" (escaped from some sinful entanglements).

    Also, notice their problem: They are DOGS! The problem isnot what they have done, but their very NATURE never changed! Had they not been "dogs" they would not have returned to their vomit. This again shows that our nature results in our actions, not vice versa.

    The problems of not looking at the original language. Look at the sentence "Abide in me and I in you". That is not a CONDITION, but a statement of fact. Jesus is not commanding them to abide in Him; that would not make sense with "I in you" being in the same sentence. Rather, He is saying "I abide in you and you abide in me". No condition: just a statement of truth. This becomes obvious, when Jesus says:

    Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruits, nor can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    Notice that Jesus does not say "A good tree should try to bear good fruit" or "A good tree should choose to bear good fruit". He says a good tree CANNOT bear bad fruit: it is impossible for the saved to fall into apostasy.

    Continued next post>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
     
  13. Havensdad

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    CONTEXT!!

    man who sowed good seed in his field,

    Who is the one who sowed the good seed?

    Mat 13:25 but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away.

    Then Jesus explains to His disciples. ALL OF THE SEED SOWED BY JESUS is SAVED!!! NONE of that sowed by the ENEMY is saved...

    The reason the weeds are thrown into the fire, is that they are not WHEAT, they only LOOKED like wheat, but in fact were WEEDS from the very moment they were planted. This actually supports Perseverance of the Saints (OSAS is actually a horrible doctrine, and is distinct from Perseverance)

    The context here, is not that some who were saved become unsaved. Rather, that the TEACHING would be corrupted. The word "pistis" can mean simply a "religious truth". These people leave the "Faith", that is, the true teaching of Scripture, and teach something else. There salvation is not even in question, here.

    We use the word "faith" the same way today. We say the "Christian faith" the "Muslim Faith" etc. Many say they are a follower of Christ, that does not mean they are really saved.


    They have just shown themselves to be weeds, not wheat.
    This is an ironic quote for you to use. Pauls entire point here, is that anyone who wants to be justified by what they have done, is not covered by Christs saving grace. BTW "Ekpipto" (fallen) can just mean "perish", not necessarly meaning you at one time were saved.

    [/quote]

    Our names were written in the Lambs book of life, from the "Foundation of the world".

    Rev 3:5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.
    Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain

    And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

    Notice the determining factor, in these verses, of what a person does, is dependent on whether not his name is in the book of Life. Those whose names are not in the book of life, worship the beast. Those who are, don't.

    Why did they fall away? They had no "root" in themselves. Notice the two different Greek words for "Receive".

    The "Receive" in THIS verse, is "Lambano". It conveys the idea of taking hold of something, in order to USE it. Compare that to this verse...

    Mar 4:20 And those are they that were sown upon the good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bear fruit, thirtyfold, and sixtyfold, and a hundredfold.

    The word here, for receive (accept, in some translations), paradechomai, is the word one uses to receive a son. It means to "delight" in. One takes the word for an impure motive, one is received as a son...one has a "root" that has been implanted (the Holy Spirit), one does not.

    [/quote]

    Or we can take scripture as a whole, and interpret verses in context...

    Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
    Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

    Notice this does not say "I knew you, but you fell away". This is actually a Greek double negative "I never, at no time knew you", which is a way of capitalizing and stressing the fact that these were not people who knew Him and fell away, but were NEVER known...

    Salvation is always said to be eternal, and a present possession. It is God who calls, and He guarantees He will justify those He calls (Romans 8:30). Scripture states NOTHING created can separate us from God (Romans 8:38-39). Were you created??
     
  14. olivia529

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    Truthfully, I have seen folks take all the eternal security scriptures and do the same thing.

    But the one that generally makes me fall on the side of you can lose your salvation is the one you're talking about here. You say it's not a condition but a statement of fact, but there is a condition involved. Jesus says "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”

    Since "abide" means to "remain" (and is often translated that way), it seems to me that someone can be in Christ, but can choose to not remain. I don't know how someone who is in Christ is not saved, and it appears to me from what Christ says they can at some point not remain in him, and the result appears to me to be "not saved".
     
  15. olivia529

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    Some explain that because they believe the reception of eternal life comes after the judgment -- at that point they are secure.

    Others say it testifies to the faithfulness of God -- no one can 'snatch' you but that does not mean you cannot by an act of your will leave the hand of God.
     
  16. Bible-boy

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    The text says "no one." I am a someone. Therefore, I cannot snatch (remove) myself from His hand.

    That other stuff about not being saved until the final judgement is just nonsense. One verse of the Scripture in NT Greek that shows that our salvation is in the Present Active Indicative blows that idea out of the water.
     
  17. Havensdad

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    Abide references not to depart, to live in, etc. This Greek word (Meno) does NOT mean "stay" the way we would use it, necessarily.

    For instance, I could say "I will not abide in your house". Does that mean I was ever in your house? No. I am refusing to stay in your house, true, but this does not mean I came in first.

    Jesus is not commanding anything. He is saying His disciples abide (live, remain) in Him, and He in them. If anyone does not "abide" in Jesus (not saying they ever had Him in the first place, remember the "house" analogy above), they will not be saved.

    The Holy Spirit indwells a believer. They are "sealed" until the day of Judgment...

    2Ti 2:13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful-- for he cannot deny himself.
     
  18. olivia529

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    I think there are references to salvation in the past, present and future tenses.
     
  19. Havensdad

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    Not future. Show one. Anytime we are said to be "saved" or "receive" salvation, it is always in the Greek present tense, or a couple times in the past.

    BUT: all it takes is for Him to tell ONE person you ARE or you WERE saved, to absolutely blow this idea out of the water, as my esteemed colleague has said.
     
  20. olivia529

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    Meno -- A primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy) -- abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.

    I'm not sure how someone can "stay" someplace they have never been.

    Also within the context of that discussion is the 2nd verse where Christ says the Father cuts out every branch "in Christ" that bears no fruit. So there is another reference to someone who has been a branch, and is not any longer. You cannot be cut out if you're not a branch. So do you think you can be a branch "in Christ" and not be saved? I don't think I do.

    But like I said earlier, I think it is one of the most interesting discussions in theology. Of course the more historical churches like the Orthodox and Catholics do not believe in OSAS. But within those churches who profess to be "Bible-alone", as near as I can tell the Southern Baptists, most Independent Baptists (though not all), the Presbyterians and the Pentecostals believe in OSAS. The General Baptists, Free-will Baptists, Lutherans, Church of Christ, and Methodists don't.

    And the non-denoms are kind of all across the board. More or less depends on the views of the individual pastor.
     

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