Can you lose your salvation?

HP: In the first part of this chapter we have the examples of God’s chosen people, the children of Israel. Is there any indication you find that they were not in a Covenant relationship with God at one time, and as such rightful heirs to the Kingdom? It would seem to me that this passage is depicting the clear possibility that the possession of inheritance one has had at one time can indeed be forfeited and lost due to ones own choices of selfishness and disobedience.

There could only be three possibilities as I now see it. 1. Possibly they were in a right relationship at one time and as such proper recipients of God’s grace, and nothing could change that period as OSAS proclaims for themselves. If that was true, what possibly could the warnings be all about? Can you equate dying as a result of terrible serpent bites that cost so many their lives with the mere loosing of ones rewards? If so, are you going to tell us that all those God killed are going to be found in Christ in the last day and that they were all saved alike; those disobeying and being killed and those obeying and remaining alive? Does not such an opinion make a mockery of the passage that clearly states that NO idolaters will be found in heaven, a sin that God laid DIRECTLY to the charge of those killed. Does wisdom and proper judgment, things we are instructed to utilize in verse 15, place no distinction between the profane intents of idolatry and the obedience and love towards God all that have a certain hope of eternal life must exhibit? “He that sayeth he loveth me and keepeth not my commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.” “Ye cannot love God and mammon.” 1Co 6:9 ¶ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,”

Possibly you might believe the second option 2. That those killed were never in a right relationship with God and heirs of the covenant.....Or the third option. 3. That at least some were indeed saved and walking in obedience at one time and had failed to maintain that walk by committing idolatry, rendering them unfit for the Kingdom in that state and as such doomed to an eternal hell.

 

That just makes to much sense, who would believe something that logical?

 

Galatians is indeed one of the authoritative commentaries on this issue.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

In fact, Paul calls 'works-based' means of salvation "another gospel". Clearly, if you cannot be perfected by works, then you cannot be un-perfected (or lose your salvation) by works. However, I think THERE IS a way to lose your salvation, and that is to stop believing in Jesus. Additionally, there are those who will "lose" their salvation because - in reality they were never actually saved (Matt 7:23). This isn't technically "losing" salvation though.

 

HP: That remark is simply false. You exhibit a clear lack of understanding between the grounds of salvation and the conditions of salvation. I will post once again this prison illustration to illustrate.



A man goes to prison for life, being justly condemned and sentenced by a judge for a specific crime. Can such an individual ‘merit’ a pardon by the performance of good works while in prison? Can such a criminal perform good works to such a degree that the governor is forced to grant this man a pardon based merely on the ‘merit’ of the performance of such good works? Absolutely not. You cannot then consider any intents or actions as the grounds of his pardon, not could you say that he in any way could ‘merit’ a pardon. IF he is granted a pardon it cannot be said that in any sense his pardon was ‘for the sake of’ anything the prisoner had done or could do.

Just the same can the governor, if he so pleases, pardon such a criminal? Of course he can. Still, there is something the criminal MUST do, there is an attitude that MUST be reflected by the criminal to receive a pardon IF the governor is indeed fair and just. . If the prisoner is to receive a pardon it still can be said that there must be attitudes that are tied inseparably to intents of the heart, this very initial intent being none other than a ‘work’ in one sense of the word being something the prisoner must do. The governor MUST witness from the criminal a repentant attitude and a change of heart towards his former criminal behavior if the governor is even to consider such a pardon for the criminal. Here we see that the intents and actions of the prisoner indeed do play a part in a pardon, though again, not in the sense of 'that for the sake of.' The sense that the intents and works of the prisoner are involved in a pardon can only be seen in the sense of 'not without which,' not 'that for the sake of.' Nothing the prisoner can or will do can merit a pardon, but just the same neither will he receive a pardon without repentance and an assurance of future behavior is garnered.

What kind of governor would pardon a criminal from prison who had not exhibited true remorse for his crimes? Would not the governor have to be satisfied in his or her mind that IF they pardoned such a criminal that they would not return to commit the same crime or one of like heinous behavior upon society again and that such a criminal possessed and exhibited a true change of heart and attitude towards their former behavior? There are indeed certain conditions that the criminal must meet, works that such a one must of necessity do in order to have the opportunity for a pardon if such an opportunity is offered. These works on the part of the prisoner are again, in no way meritorious in nature, and in no way force the governor to grant such a one a pardon on the account of any or all of their works. Just the same, there are definite conditions or works one must do in order for the governor to consider the pardon. These works are thought of in the sense of ‘not without which,’ not ‘that for the sake of.’

It can properly be stated that one is not pardoned due to any works (in one sense of the word ‘works’) in the sense of ‘that for the sake of’ of the prisoner, but just the same it can be said ‘without works’ (in another sense of the word, that being in the sense of ‘not without which’) one will never see the opportunity to receive a pardon.

Can you see how that works can be thought of as necessary for a pardon, or in the sense of “not without which,” yet at the same time no amount of works can be thought of as “that for the sake of” or forcing the governor to pardon the criminal on the account of works performed by the criminal?

Such is the case in our salvation. We indeed will be judged by our works, but our works are not the grounds of our salvation. There is no amount of works that can coerce God into granting us a pardon, but just the same no man will be found in Him without works consistent with their faith. Nothing we do is meritorious, nor can anything we do be seen of in the sense of ‘that for the sake of’ our salvation. Nothing but the blood of Christ can atone for a single sin. Just the same, God does command us to repent and be obedient to the end, bearing fruits of righteousness and holiness, ‘without which’ no man shall see the Lord.

Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

 

The bolded part is mine. For you it is a misquote of Scripture and therefore not true. You have twisted the Scripture to make a point that does not exist. Now why not quote the Scripture that you are referring to. Then we shall see that your point is totally invalid.

 

HP: God does command us to repent and be obedient to the end, bearing fruits of righteousness and holiness, ‘without which’ no man shall see the Lord.

Repentance necessary for a right relationship with God:
Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Lu 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Obedience necessary to be a disciple:
Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Lu 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Reminder: Dead faith will save no one.

Righteousness and holiness enjoined:
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jo 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

 

Now the truth comes out HP. They are not all "crunched" into one verse as you implied.

 

For those interested in Works-based salvation, you have to keep in mind that you must follow THE WHOLE law for this to have any effect. That means not eating pork, animal sacrifices, the whole 9 yards.

Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

For you women, that means staying in a hotel for one week out of each month. For you men, no bar-b-q'ing on Sunday (or Saturday night), or cooking of any kind. You prepared to do that? If not, you will lose your salvation (in a works-based system).

But see what Paul says:

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Paul says that - According to The Law itself, salvation is by Faith. Furthermore, consider what I believe to be the first Christian - Abraham.

Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Paul sees Abraham's salvation, and offers this observation:

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

God preached the Gospel (before it even existed) to Abraham, and he believed God and THIS is what was counted for righteousness. Paul makes this argument in Galatians, and also in Romans:

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Paul goes on to LEGALLY PROVE from The Law (the Torah) that Abraham was justified by faith:


Rom 4:9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.

Paul says "hey Abraham was considered righteous IN THE LAW (the Torah) by his faith - having been told of Jesus Christ (Gal 3:16, Gen 15:5-6) and believing in Christ even before he fulfilled the WORKS of the covenant by being circumcised. It wasn't until AFTER he had been counted righteous by God that Abraham was circumcised.

 

HP: What God did not say is that which you ‘seem’ to be implying, i.e., while we remained in our sins and prior to sincere repentance, God saved us. God died for all while we were all yet sinners, but His death alone will not save. God has set forth conditions for man to meet, NOT meritorious in nature, but rather thought of in the sense of not without which, much like the conditions necessary for a prisoner to fulfill in order to receive a pardon. The prisoner can do NOTHING to ‘merit a pardon Ann, yet there are some things, that ‘without which’ a pardon will never be granted.

HP: God calls upon man to first repent antecedent to the pardon. Repentance is mans work antecedent to forgiveness, though again NOT meritorious in and of itself. Repentance is a condition placed upon receiving salvation, without which no one shall be saved.
Christ stands at the door and knocks, “Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.” Notice that Christ does not come in and then you act to open the door. Man must in repentance, by the formation of a voluntary intents of repentance and faith, fulfill the stated conditions without which Christ will not enter your hearts door. Opening the door does not save. Christ saves. Just the same, one will not be saved apart from opening the door in obedience to His stated conditions.

HP: Again repentance and faith as conditions of salvation must be performed antecedent to salvation in order for Christ to save.

HP: God is at work in the heart of sinful man prior to salvation. Some will hear and obey and others will resist and in the end be lost.

 

Hi brother!

I see your still sticking with that prison illustration even though the scriptures blows it full of holes. Here is the problem with your view....

Eph 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

"Repent" means to change one's mind. The only repentence required for a rebirth is going from unbelief to belief. Then, and only then, after receiving the regeneration by the Holy Ghost, can one repent of their sins and begin growing in Christ.

God Bless! :wavey:

 

HP: The holes you speak of are nothing short of figments of your own making. The verse you mention here in no wise contradicts that which the prison illustration sets forth. Your blind eye to the truth of that illustration in no wise sheds any light to the contrary.

HP: I would say that repentance is far more than changing ones mind. It certainly involves the changing of ones mind but it also involves the will in choosing different ends. An alcoholic can change ones mind as to the evil effects of alcohol, but if it does not affect his will there is no repentance.

HP: I missed your Scriptural reference for that point.

HP: You have it precisely backwards. Repentance is the duty God places upon man in order to be regenerated. It must of necessity lie antecedent to regeneration, not subsequent to as you falsely claim. If repentance was the result of regeneration there could be no command from God to do so. It would simply be the necessitated results of God’s work upon man. That simply is not the case as the commands of God to man to repent establish clearly. Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

 

You have misrepresented my claim. I don't know why you would do this. I said repentance from unbelief to belief comes first. Then repentance from dead works and sins will take place. You want to lump all repenting of all things into one moment. Scripture does not do this, context MUST be kept.

So you never repented of any sin or dead work since your conversion?

If these people repent of their sins and dead works will they be saved? Or is salvation granted a person by faith apart from works like Paul has said?

Tts 3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Where you error brother is in the timing of regeneration (saved) . No one can totally repent of all sin and be perfect, so that is an impossibility for regeneration. No one can do works of righteousness without having Jesus Christ so that is an impossibility. So one must first repent of unbelief, receive Jesus as Saviour (regeneration) and then once having Jesus they can do good works. Otherwise....

Isa 64:6But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.


One must be regenerated first....

Jhn 15:5I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.


Scripture gives the order brother. It is you who are placing things backwards.

:jesus:

 

Here are few.....

Jhn 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


Mar 1:15And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Luk 13:5I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Act 2:38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;Act 17:30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:Act 26:20But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

:godisgood:

 

HP: You set up an 'either or' proposition that overlooks the truth of the matter. Works are both involved and not involved in salvation. Works are thought of in TWO, NOT ONE, senses. There are works thought of in the sense of that for the sake of. Certainly we are saved apart from works in this sense for there is nothing we can or could do to merit salvation period. On the other hand, there are works, thought of in the sense of not without which that we must do in order to be saved. Bear in mind that those works, repentance and faith, are NOT meritorious in the least, but rather are clear conditions that God has mandated that we must comply with, without which no salvation and forgiveness can be garnered.

Even the Jews clearly had this concept right. They clearly understood that they were required by God to first repent in order to receive forgiveness. Alfred Edersheim, a most well known and respected authority on Jewish antiquity, points out that they clearly understood that unless one bringing a sacrifice for forgiveness first had a heart of repentance towards God and their sins, no sacrifice could have any effect on obtaining forgiveness. Read hiim in his excellent book entitled "The Temple."

The order for forgiveness to enter into a hope of eternal life, or to continue therein, is always the same. First repent, exercise faith as an intent and act of the will, and then receive forgiveness and assurance.

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Here the apostle is teaching us that there is clearly some things that we must do to in order to be saved and or stay on the path of obedience and assurance, without which no salvation, either in this world as a certain hope or in the world to come as a final reality, is possible. James is NOT teaching that we can work for our salvation, or that the works which he denotes as necessary for salvation and faith are meritorious in nature, but rather is speaking of works in the sense of ‘not without which.’ The prison illustration that I provided clearly demonstrates this truth as it relates to works and a pardon.

 

It is either or. You set up a double speak. "Certainly we are saved apart from works in this sense for there is nothing we can or could do to merit salvation period. On the other hand, there are works, thought of in the sense of not without which that we must do in order to be saved.". This is double talk and error.

By grace are ye saved, not of works, not of yourselves. This negates your "both" theology. Build your doctrine from this rock and you will see that works are only a result of what God has done in you.

:godisgood:

 

This is error. Here the apostle is teaching us to examine ourselves. Said faith does not save. True faith generates good works. James is not teaching things we must do to be saved, but rather things that should be happening if one has truly been born of God.

:jesus: