Can you love your children more than God does?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by StefanM, Apr 26, 2011.

  1. StefanM

    StefanM
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    webdog posted this in another thread (now closed):
    I have been ruminating on this for a while now. I am always receptive to new arguments that may challenge my positions, and this one has stuck with me for a week or so.

    Thoughts anyone?
     
  2. Skandelon

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    I posed this question in regard to Paul's expression of love for his Jewish brethren in Romans 9 where he wished himself accursed for their sake. Did Paul, inspired by the HS to write these words, express a greater love for these rebellious hardened Israelites than that of God?
     
  3. Calv1

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    A different love to be sure. Same in a sense, but not as holy. It's amazing, even though to us now it seems reprehensible, but when we are in Heaven, we will be singing with the saints who say "How long oh Lord until you avenge the brothers". In other words we will hate the reprobate.

    Everything about our children, family, etc. that we love is something that is from God. Any goodness that is in them is from God. When that day has passed, what we loved about them will be gone. There will be nothing lovable about them.

    Tough question to be sure!
     
  4. StefanM

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    This is a good question.
     
  5. Skandelon

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    Can you show us the biblical proof that the love Paul expressed here is "different" and "not as holy?"

    Where do you find biblical support for this view?
     
  6. Calv1

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    Revelation 6:10
     
  7. webdog

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    My thoughts are...has it been with you for a week due to the horrendous grammar? I just read it back for the first time and cringed :) Trying to type on a mini keyboard....and they call it a "smartphone" :laugh:
     
  8. Skandelon

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    No, I'm asking if you believe God's love for those being hardened in Romans 9 is greater than Paul's expression of love for those same individuals?

    I believe God's love is greater than Paul's love and obviously Paul's love is great because he wishes himself accursed for their sake and he does so writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

    I agree with Clarke's commentary on this verse:

     
  9. Calv1

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    You really do? With Adam Clarke? Do you think that the Saints in Heaven love Gods enemies? God hates them, they are under His sure wrath, yet the Saints are of a different mind?

    We couldn't disagree more.
     
  10. Skandelon

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    Calv1, do you know of and respect Dr. John MacArthur?
     
  11. Calv1

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    Yes, and I agree with him much of the time.
     
  12. Skandelon

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    Good, then maybe you are familiar with his writings concerning the tendency of some Calvinistic believers to become "hyper" by suggesting that God doesn't genuinely love and call all mankind to be saved? I asked because your post seems to suggest you are tending in that direction, but maybe I misunderstood you, or is that a point in which you differ with MacArthur?
     
  13. Calv1

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    It is not "Hyper" to teach what the bible teachs. Gods wrath is upon some men, and He hates these men. The only "Love" they receive is that they are still receiving breath.

    You aren't saying God loves all men are you? Did not God HATE Esau before he was born, or is that not in scripture? And yes, the Greek word is "Hate".
     
  14. Skandelon

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    Can I correctly deduce by this reply that you disagree with MacArthur on this point, or are you just unfamiliar with his teaching in this regard?
     
  15. Calv1

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    I don't really know or care what John MacArthur is saying, what does it have to do with anything? Did you have a direct question?

    What about my direct questions? .
     
  16. Skandelon

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    I am attempting to ascertain how aware you are of the different scholarly views on this subject there are within the ranks of Calvinism. Having been a Calvinist I realize that you would be more open to learning from another respected Calvinist than you would be from a non-Calvinist like me, who you do not know. I think it might serve you well to read MacArthur's work on this point regarding the love of God. That is all.

    He and his ghost writer (Phil Johnson) make a solid argument that those who don't hold to this view are in what some refer to as "hyper-Calvinism" (that which goes beyond what Calvin himself actually taught and believed).

    I believe those questions would be answered best by someone like MacArthur because you would be more likely to hear them and respect his answer since he replies from a true Calvinistic perspective.

    You can read his perspective HERE>

    Below is an excerpt from that article. I hope it helps:

     
  17. Calv1

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    Thanks for the suggestions, but just some of my favorite writers who I have studied over the years, Edwards, Warfield, Owen, Pink, MacArthur, Piper, White, on and on and on.
     
  18. Skandelon

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    Oh good, then you know of the differing perspectives among even Calvinists with regard to the subject of God's love for the reprobate? Good to know that you understand those things.

    So, why is it that you disagree with MacArthur's arguments on this matter? Since Calvin doesn't teach what you believe regarding God's love for the world, do you prefer the term "Hyper-Calvinist" or some other term to describe your theological perspective?
     
  19. Calv1

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    Thanks for that, but I disagree with MacArthur strongly in this regard. He has no scriptural support for his position, it seems a watered down message to make something he wishes to believe.

    We have to ask "What is love". Is not love seeking the good of the other? Does God seek the good of the reprobate? Or is He allowing them to "Store up wrath"?

    Berkoff put it this way, "When God's love falls upon imperfection, it is frustrated, this frustration becomes hatred". God can love us from before the foundation of the world, for even though we are not perfect, He knew and did positionally make us perfect.
     
  20. Calv1

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    Calvin made many mistakes, and no one writer has everything 100% correct all of the time.

    I am not a hyper-Calvinist, I reject that, and you shouldn't suggest it. If you really understood Calvinism you'd never ask me that.

    I am in good company however, AW Pink, BB Warfield, Jonathan Edwards, John Piper, on and on, but even if I wasn't, should I just fall in line like everyone else?

    The way I see my walk is that I can simply believe what everyone else does, follow traditions and everyone will like me, or I can be true to God's word whether I understand it or not, be true to God's word and be criticized. I gladly pick the latter.

    The Church is almost not a Church anymore, we are not concerned with glorifying God, but appealing to the sensitivities of the world. Like my friend said "There's not enough gospel in the Church to even reject it".

    Anyways, I'm dead tired, goodnight.
     

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