Featured Can you really BLAME them?

Not outside of sin. God has not predetermined to torture them for all eternity just because he is mean. these people that are in hell go there because they are sinners. They deserve hell.

 

Most non elect...do not even know about God, election, and predestination.
They just like darkness. if you tell them, they do not believe it anyway,they just love sin.
When they are in hell, they will know why they are there, and they will still hate God and love sin.

This so called sensitive reprobate does not exist except here on Bb.

 

Yep. Jesus said as much to Nicodemus:

 

Yes I would. They live and breathe God's air.They should be thankful,and obedient...they are not. Before the judgement...men do not know if God loves them , or hates them...as the gospel proclaims God loves sinners in Christ. they have no valid reason to hate God, no valid excuse.
They will all bow the knee to him who reigns....when sinners see the holiness of God, and they remain in an unclean state...they will not repent, but will seek to avoid Him....

[QUOTE15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
][/QUOTE]

 

You either don't know the Scripture to which I alluded, or worse, you're interpreting it in your usual framework of misapprehension.

Esau is the non-elect, and he is judged for his sin. It's all very clear. Jacob was chosen to be redeemed, Esau was rejected, and this not because of anything either did or would do, nor because of the character of either, which were equally iniquitous, (Jacob was a liar and a thief), but solely on the basis of God's purposes according to election.

Your objection ever and anon will be, Why doth He yet find fault, for who hath resisted His will? All your noble purpose/judicial hardening/enabling constructions are an attempt to make God into an image that will fit into the framework of a carnal sense of justice.

But God will not yield to that. He has given His answer. One either accepts it or rejects it.

 

That's right. The only reason one does not is because of God's grace.

It means that the election of Jacob and the rejection of Esau is about individual redemption.

 

It's a wonder that more Calvinists are not politicians because they are so good at double speak.

How can we say that non-elect "should be thankful and obedient to God" in one breath, and that they are incapable of obedience in the next?

Which is it? Either they are capable of obedience to God and refuse to be, or, they are not even given the ability to repent and it is not their fault.

Calvinism is like a father saying that he will never give his son the tools to do the right things in life, by not teaching him morals and good behavior. But then holding the child responsible and punishing him when he turns out bad. Whose fault is it that the kid is bad? The kid's fault, or the non-caring father?

(And yes, I know you Cals will respond with "We are all bad kids". I am referring to problem kid's that go beyond the norm, like drugs and stealing.)

Bottom line is this: If man is denied the ability to repent, then he is not responsible for his unrepentence.

The fact that God punishes unrepentent sinners is proof that they do indeed have the ability to repent.

Skan is completely correct in his observations in the OP.

John

 

Looky here at Icon speaking of "valid" reasoning! Are you trying to philosophize Icon?

 

The Answer

First, it does not matter whether we humans blame other humans, what matters is if God punishes humans for sinning, if God created them so that they could only choose to sin.

1. God does not punish anyone other than Adam for the sin of Adam. But sin has consequences, and the consequence of Adam sinning is that the many were made sinners, condemned to a state of separation from God. Thus as a consequence of Adam's sin, the many must believe in His Son or face eternity in a separated from God state, where they will be punished with torment for their volitional sins.

2. God loved fallen mankind in this way, He gave His Son so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

3. Anyone who hears and understands the Gospel of Christ has been granted the opportunity to be saved. However, some do not make a full blown commitment to Christ, rather they make a lip service commitment, a all gain and no pain commitment. Others try to fit Christ into their hearts, but leave conflicting and inhibiting desires in their hearts as well. But some, hear, understand, and trust in God and Christ from their heart, and rather than make Christ their highest priority, them make Christ their only priority, where anything that inhibits their full devotion to Christ is tossed as rubbish.

4. God predetermined that those whose faith He credits as righteousness will be put spiritually in Christ, regenerated, forgiven, be spiritually born again, conformed to the image of His Son and at His second coming, resurrected in glorified bodies, meeting Christ in the air. ​

Why muddy these waters with the silly traditions of men?

 

You're ignoring Paul's application, which is one was made a vessel of wrath, and one was made a vessel of mercy. The elect are represented by Jacob, and the nonelect by Esau.

The elect are a holy nation, a royal priesthood. The nonelect are a profane and unholy nation that God will destroy.

You need to learn to stop judging God's words according to your own notions of a concept. Esau did serve Jacob, though not willingly. He was made a servant. His rebellion served God's immediate and long-term interests for Jacob.

Once you learn that God's ways are not your ways, you will see that God's justice doesn not conform to your own carnal sense thereof, and you will see that your objection is invalid. More than invalid, proud, vain and presumptuous. You get an Apostolic slap on mouth, "O man, who art thou?"