Can you refute this Charismatic Apologist?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by evangelist6589, Jan 4, 2014.

  1. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589
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    This guy whom is a director of a para church ministry often challenges me on FB whenever I post some discernment on the Charismatic Movement and or the sign gifts. However his last post I am unable to refute him as perhaps he may have read more books, gained more seminary education, and or has a more academic mind than me. How should I respond to him?

    NOTE- THIS IS NOT A CAL/ARMN DEBATE. If this guy is Charismatic or Emergent I do not know, but he seems to defend both movements and his praises of Dan Kimball are very questionable. Kimball is emergent no question.

    Charismatic Apologist- The biggest threat to Biblical Christianity is Christians who don't know that Jesus broke the religious theologies of his day to prove the theology of love! No matter what "movement" is happening or what theological spectrum one believes and/or despises...if they don't know love, they are nothing - to paraphrase Paul.

    Evangelist-You are preaching emergent theology xxx just not aware of it. They will ignore doctrine and say that "love" is the most important. But I challenge their interpretation of love. Love is knowing the bible and speaking the truth.

    Charismatic Apologist-Very well aware of the emergent church John. I attended church with Kimball when he pioneered the movement.

    Like you John, I hold degrees in theology. However, maybe unlike you, I have studied the theological viewpoint of nearly every theologian and movement from the time of Jesus to today. Also studied a vast majority of Rabbinical literature from the time of the 70 elders to today. I have studied in the very land the bible was written from, under and alongside some of the greatest theologians of our day. I could not be grouped into any movement or any line of theology which you know. I can read and write in the languages the bible was written, including Aramaic.

    What I have concluded for myself is that:
    Theology was made for man, man was not made for theology; like Jesus says when he defied the theology of his day.

    Exactly what Paul says is what I believe after all my studies. Any movement, theology, ideology, or personal worldview which does not root in love is nothing.

    Jesus promoted and fulfilled two laws as the greatest...love your neighbor, love God.

    The religious leaders of his day were bound to theology which prevented them from loving others, especially the shameful. Jesus condemned them for their theology because there was no love, and then he acted against their theology.

    Anytime our theology (which is often derived from broken, fallible and biblically illiterate men) causes us to cease loving unconditionally, then we made our theology our master, our god in stead of God who is love.

    You my friend appear to be bound by the theologies of certain men who urge you to war against movements of differing theology. Those men interpret the bible based off the views they learned from one of three men...in the case if MacArthur - two men (Luther and Calvin).

    I am not attacking any theologian, only saying they derived their views predominantly from Luther, Calvin or Wesley and hold fast those theological perspectives which are from biblically illiterate men.

    As for their theology which urges you to war against differing theology...let me ask you this.

    When God created the world, was the point to create man or to creat laws (theology) to govern man?

    People are the point of God's creation and love is the meaning/root/reason. Nothing should ever separate us or cause us to want to war against each other...not a difference of opinion, a movement or a theology. I think Jesus said that loud and clear.

    Evangelist-Theology was not made for man, theology is the study of God. Man centered theology has man at the center, but God centered theology has God at the center. Sadly much man centered theology is all over the church. Waring against others is only necessary when the essentials are at stake. Notice I am not advocating waring against people whom are Postmillennialist, or hold a different eschatology than me. Nor am I waring against Arminian such as Norman Geisler. Geisler is well educated and understands the Bible, but not Reformed. However the Charismatic movement and what I have mentioned above are entirely different.

    Charismatic Apologist-Theology depends on your personally view of God.

    The Hebrews viewed and study God through the Laws (Torah), Prophets and the testimony of ancestors. In that sense, the law was made for them and they were not made for the law (their theology).

    For us, as westernized Christians, our theology is vastly based on the interpretation of how other men study God and not so much the word of God. For instance, you believe in a Reformed theology...correct me if I am wrong. That theology stems heavily from Martin Luther and John Calvin. Luther, though he had great points and we owe a get deal to him for protesting against oppressive theology, he was VERY off in his personal views of the bible...something most theologians forget and don't pass on to their pupils. You my friend would war against Luther today if you knew his views. He was not biblically literate, he was only literate about a few books of the bible. But God still used him to separate and bring about a reformation.

    You would argue another man's view of God because you align yourself with that view and believe HIS argument. That's man centered theology as you claimed.

    So the theology the west believes in is mostly "hear-say" which I think is what your referencing to the church today and I would agree.

    Now if theology is simply the study of God,and not arguing some mans view of God through his studying, then let me ask a sincere question:

    How does studying God lead one to "war" against other people for holding and acting in "non-oppressive" views.

    What type of God have you studied that calls you to wage a war on people who don't oppress but also don't hold a "Reformed" theology, or a theology inconsistent with yours?

    Let me ask this:

    Through all your studies of God, what will he say to you on the day of Judgement?

    Will he say, well done John, you have waged war on people because they didn't quite understand me the way you did?

    Or

    Will god say, well done because you have loved and forgiven even those who did not understand me?

    I think Jesus died in love to forgive those who didn't know him or his father.

    I don't think he died in passion to war against opposing view points.

    John, sincerely, I believe you and I hold very similar theological viewpoints. I only believe we act on those views in very different ways.

    Maybe it's because I study a God who doesn't force people to believe one view or another but gives them a choice in belief and continues to love them equally no matter what they believe or don't believe (I.e. Woman at the well, woman caught in adultery, all those he died in the cross for, etc).

    Maybe you see a God who forces people to believe one way and his love is conditional, based on what they believe. That would be consistent with Reformed theology which is birthed from a Roman Catholic theology that taught ALL had to believe and pay money to the papacy/church or die. Hence 52 million people died under Pope Innocent III's reign which happened right around the time Luther came into play(1200-1500). Reformed theology has great points as do all theological view points. But it also is flawed as is all other theological viewpoints.
     
  2. Jkdbuck76

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    he has some good points, I'll not argue that. You need to remember that even his own opinion is flawed. He's not, however, defending Charismatic belief and practice...he's putting the monkey on YOUR back. In other words, he's not defending Charismatic belief....he's trying to spotlight what you think and feel. Therein lies the difference. We're NOT the theology police, called to smite those who don't agree.

    One MAJOR thing I take issue with is his notion that the religious authorities of his day hated Jesus and His message because of their THEOLOGY? Excuse me? Read the Gospel of John and he'll tell you why they hated Him. Basically, they had a sin problem, NOT an intellectual/theological problem per se. The Blessed Lord Jesus Christ boldly called these religious leaders "hypocrites", "open graves", etc. They were wicked men who deep down hated God or else they would have believed on him who He had sent.

    So while he gives you some good food for thought, he's NOT convincing me that Luther was illiterate, nor has he convinced me to run up and down the aisled shouting gibberish, nor has he convinced me that the ultimate criteria on "what is right" = "whatever I feel/think God is telling me right now."
     
  3. preacher4truth

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    Love is being abused here as some magic wand to dismiss dogma, and also on a more subjective level to give his doctrine credence.

    But note he doesn't give John's biblical teaching the same admission unless it matches his and his ideology. It is almost cult like in my opinion, as if John should hang his head in shame for his stance, accept what this fellow is saying, and then 'you're in'.

    He is all over the place after that. Basically it looks as if one doesn't agree with his premise, then these are not of love and know nothing at all. He's not bringing sound doctrine. His appeal is all over the place, a shot gun style of theology. Notice also he puts much stock in his personal studies and in himself. The basis should be Scripture not ones credentials.

    His rebuke of any person who wars against theologies is hilarious and saddening at the same time because that is exactly what he is doing. I take it to mean standing for the faith once delivered is considered 'unloving' and that is where he and I would have to part ways. Once you set that precedent you're trodding down a path of grave error and have lost the Biblical standard.

    Jkdbuck, I will have to beg to differ with your statement that we are not the theological police. The epistles to Timothy, Jude and other portions actually tell us we in fact are, but 'theological police' sounds a bit derogatory to those set for the defense of the Gospel -- Php 1:7, 17 in my opinion.

    John you'll never win with that guy until you concede your biblical position.
     
  4. Jkdbuck76

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    Point taken, sir. But you're so unloving!!! just kidding. It takes love to tell ppl that they are wrong. Thank you. Now go download those mysword modules for Kindle.
     
  5. preacher4truth

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    :laugh: :thumbsup:

    We have hundreds of those modules of mysword on our Google Nexus. It's really convenient to use in my study and I don't need a full pc. During our service last Wednesday we had a couple put that mysword app on their Kindles, they really liked it and were 'wowed'. Thanks for the help.

    Now back to our regularly scheduled program. :laugh:
     
  6. Jkdbuck76

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    Have there always been charismatics? I mean, down thru the centuries?
     
  7. preacher4truth

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    Yes. They were called 'enthusiasts' in the past. Jonathan Edwards book 'The Religious Affections' deals with this very issue. They have always and rightly been deemed dissident. Stephen Lawson gave a wonderful message at Strange Fire and spoke of how Calvin dealt with this in his day.

    The book above is a more difficult read than most but is one of the best books I've ever read. If you haven't read it, you should. I believe it is in module format for free on that site.
     
  8. Jkdbuck76

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    Did Calvin show up JUST outside his parking lot selling his books???
     
  9. evangelist6589

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    That was my thinking and I did not reply to him. He often challenges me on FB after I make a post he does not agree with. While I say he may have a better understanding of english grammar and wording things than me, his theology is very flawed and Emergent. He would do good to read the Truth War by John MacArthur or another book on the movement by other authors, however he would immediately call them "unloving" as to him love is about accepting another worldview and not showing discernment. He is been impacted by the "New Tolerance" and can't seem to discern between rejection of a worldview and rejection of a person. I will love Emergent people but completely HATE their unbiblical postmodern theology. I have been in California where these type of churches were as spread as rabbits here in Colorado and every time I visited one I always walked away very mad. They are far worse than any IFB church and I question whether or not those in those churches are saved as many are probably false converts. The preaching was all about "self-fulfillment" and bettering ones life. SIN, HELL, JUDGMENT was never preached and so called leaders in those churches immediately dismiss those that hold them accountable as divisive and unloving.

    But I have a feeling that these type of churches are not as populous as they once where. The Emerging Church is a dying breed it appears.
     
    #9 evangelist6589, Jan 5, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2014
  10. preacher4truth

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    He preaches love but doesn't love those who stand for the faith and reject his views. This shows how deep seated political correctness is within what is called christendom. I believe these types would see those who hold to biblical truth as worthy of death, as enemies of peace, unloving, and as intolerant bigots, perhaps nothing short of John 16:2. I wouldn't find it shocking if at a point in history these types of believers found it just to do away with those who defend the Gospel.
     
  11. Aaron

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    Love rejoices in the truth.
     
  12. evangelist6589

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    EXACTLY!! I once had a disagreement with some Charismatic types on another message board and this one pastor kept on telling me that since he has "20+ years of being a pastor" his opinion was completely valid and his opinion was when doing evangelism to meet their "felt needs" and not to pass out tracts or preach on sin. I told him I did not give a rat about his credentials or experience as the scripture is my sole authority. That did not go well with that pastor. But he placed a huge emphasis on himself and treated ministry like a vocation, when ministry is a life.
     
  13. preacher4truth

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    For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth.
     
  14. evangelist6589

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    Good verse and that verse promises PERSECUTION. Jesus also speaks about this in his high priestly prayer if I recall correctly and makes that clear. I seriously question the salvation of this person and people like him. Probably false converts pretending to be true believers. Doctrine means nothing to them as its all about love. Postmodernism has impacted the emerging church and the Charismatic movement.

    He may be a director of a para church ministry and he would in a heartbeat tell me that his ministry is changing lives, getting people jobs, taking them off the street, helping people get out of debt and so forth, but such means nothing if they do not repent. Christ is not about taking care of our problems, Christ is about saving us from the WRATH OF GOD. I am a slave, yes I am a slave of God!!! He would not buy that line no doubt. Try selling that to those in his ministry.
     
    #14 evangelist6589, Jan 5, 2014
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  15. Jacob_Elliott

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    Sounds just like a Charismatic, they do a whole lot of talking, but don't really say anything. Notice he only referenced scripture once (I think). In my experience you can't argue with them, they are extremely stubborn, and don't listen, just continually push their side. Also, no matter what you say they will counter by quoting their favorite author even if it is completely unbiblical. I realize this won't apply to every charismatic, but it's rampant where I'm from and this is my experience. Just got to pray for em. :godisgood:
     
  16. quantumfaith

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    Some of "yall" are bashing this guy's expression of theology and love, completely ignoring the "lovefest" that you yourselves are having while bashing him. Some NEVER cease to amaze me.
     
  17. quantumfaith

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    Don't suppose you would give me his name in PM, I would like to friend him on FB
     
  18. prophet

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    The book of Jude is written to warn us to never cease from contending for the faith, because of the constant influx of unregenerated persons sneaking in.
     
  19. JonC

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    He does have an excellent point when it comes to pressing one’s theological positions on others. I would be cautious because it seems that this principle of his extends to Scripture itself. He presents the Hebrews as viewing and studying God through the Laws and prophets. This is true. But the Laws and prophets also carried God’s revelation (God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways…). We should not separate this perspective from the Gospel, but should understand God’s Word within the context He provided. I am not sure that this is the intent of “Charismatic Apologist,” but separating the Gospel from its historical context is often a goal of emerging theology. Theirs is not “what does this mean,” but “what does this mean to us,” which is error. Theology absolutely does not depend on our personal view of God. Our personal view of God should be derived from our study of God (not the other way around).
     
  20. evangelist6589

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    Yeah you too think alike no doubt.
     

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