Canadians? Britians?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Ps104_33, Nov 19, 2006.

  1. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
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    I have been debating with myself over the issue of a single payer health plan(such as they have in Britain, Canada and Japan) verses many private health insurance plans like we have in the U.S.
    Are there any Canadians or Britains out there who can verify these Statements? Matt Black? Are you there?


    • Long waits and reduced quality. In Britain, over 800,000 patients are waiting for hospital care. In Canada, the average wait between a general practitioner referral and a specialty consultation has been over 17 weeks. Beyond queuing for care or services, single-payer sys*tems are often characterized by strict drug for*mularies, limited treatment options, and discrimination by age in the provision of care. Price controls, a routine feature of such sys*tems, also result in reduced drug, technology, and medical device research.
    • Funding crises. Because individuals remain insulated from the direct costs of health care, as in many third-party payment systems, health care appears to be “free.” As a result, demand expands while government officials devise ways to control costs. The shortest route is by pro*viding fewer products and services through explicit and implicit rationing.
    • New inequalities. Beyond favoritism in the provision of care for the politically well-con*nected, single-payer health care systems often restrain costs by limiting surgeries for the eld*erly, restricting dialysis, withholding care from very premature infants, reducing the number of intensive care beds, limiting MRI availability, and restricting access to specialists.
    • Labor strikes and personnel shortages. In 2004, in British Columbia, Canada, a health worker strike resulted in the cancellation of 5,300 surgeries and numerous MRI examinations, CT scans, and lab tests. Canadians have a shortage of physicians, and the recruitment and retention of doctors in Britain has become a chronic problem.
    • Outdated facilities and medical equipment. Advances in medical technology are often seen in terms of their costs rather than their benefits, and investment is slower. For example, an esti*mated 60 percent of radiological equipment in Canada is technically outdated.
    • Politicization and lost liberty. Patient auton*omy is curtailed in favor of the judgment of an elite few, who dictate what health care needs and desires ought to be while imposing social controls over activities deemed undesirable or at odds with an expanding definition of “public health.” Over time, government officials will claim a compelling interest in many areas now considered private.
     
  2. carpro

    carpro
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    Now you have me confused.:confused:

    Is your debate with yourself over?

    In another thread, it appears to be.
     
  3. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
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    Please forgive me for causing you confusion. What I meant was that I have been wrestling within my own heart over whether or not this country needs to go to a single-payer system like Canada or stick with what we have now. Of course there is always the Mexican plan. Just go to the emergency room at your local hospitol and stiff them for the bill.
     
  4. Bro. James Reed

    Bro. James Reed
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    Ever wonder why we have so many foreign-born doctors in America?

    It's because the best doctors in the world want to come here and get paid what they're worth.

    With Socialized Medicine, you do not get that.

    My doctor is from Canada and he says the reason he came here is because he was not making any money for the time and effort he was putting in up there...and that was back in the '70s.

    Contrary to what many people would like to think, we have better medical care here than any other place on earth.

    The only field we are not leading in, among industrialized nations, is prenatal/pediatrics.

    For me, since I don't currently have insurance, it sometimes seems like a great idea, but I know in the long run it simply will not work. Malpractice insurance is a good chunk of the reason for high medical costs currently.
     
  5. Bro. James Reed

    Bro. James Reed
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    Do you mean Mexicans in Mexico, or Mexicans here? Do they do that in Mexico as well?:eek:
     
  6. Jim1999

    Jim1999
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    It gets tiresome. Garbage in; garbage out...If you think your medical system is so great ask some people working in that system..ask my daughter in Florida what she thinks, and whether people get full service as fast as you say they do.

    A lot of hogwash.

    Cheers,

    Jim

    My suggestion is to stay there and leave us alone in the best country in the world. Stop complaining about us. We are quite pleased.
     
  7. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
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    If Canada is so great, what is your daughter doing in Florida? Doesnt like the snow,eh? Take it easy Jim. Dont let your pride get the best of ya.
     
  8. billwald

    billwald
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    For the last 50 years Canada could spend a minimum % of GDP on defense because they knew the US would never let Canada be invaded. Canada put the money they didn't spend on defense into medical/social programs and still every national election is about inadequacy of the health system.
     
  9. Jim1999

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    Bill, that is a lot of baloney too. I am getting tired of this American rhetoric. W epaid our fair share on defence. Who the devil do you think provided the defence in the North?

    This is just more of the trash you handed to us about who won the war in Europe, when Americans didn't show up when we Brits were getting the hell bombed out of us...like daily bombing in London and other main production centers for a full year.

    Canada is a nation of 20 million now and a hang of a lot less during the war. Yet, we managed to send a mighty military force over to Europe in 1939!

    I would like you to ask the 101st US Airborne who managed to rescue them in Korea when they mistakenly had a drop right in the middle of the enemy and in a rice paddy....We earned a Presidential Citation, the highest honour a president can give to a foreign army...as we went in and rescued them....ask about the 2nd Battalion PPCLI...they will remember.

    So, let's get off this superiority claptrap and start making sense.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  10. El_Guero

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    Gallipoli . . . ?
     
  11. Ps104_33

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    Cmon Jim. You are not the one making sense. You are living in a dreamworld. I am not even going to dignify this arguement by debating about who owns the "Greatest Nation in the World" status. You will lose. If it wasnt for the US you would be speaking German.
    Auf Wiedersehen
     
  12. Bob Farnaby

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    Not quite sure why this is here, but at Gallipoli troops from Australia, New Zealand, the UK, France, India, and Newfoundland (now part of Canada) were involved in the fighting and all suffered casualties .. percentage wise NZ suffered the greatest losses. It is the key military campagn for Australia and New Zealand, a rememberance of the loss of so many young men in a sensless campagn. A lot of Turkish young men also died.

    Regards
    Bob
     
  13. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    Sorry I'm a little late in dropping in on this thread, but here's my answer from a UK perspective:-

    1. It's a myth that a publicly-funded Health Service destroys patient autonomy; in addition to the publicly-funded National Health Service, we have the usual plethora of private health companies funded by insurance (BUPA etc) which are available in addition to the NHS if people want to pay for them. So it's not an either/ or - if you don't like the NHS, you can go private if you're prepared to pay.

    2. Waiting times. True in a lot of cases in the NHS, but

    (a) High waiting times tends to be for just non-urgent cases in the main

    (b) In an emergency, you get taken to the local Accident and Emergency Dept (equivalent of the ER) and get seen straight away - and you don't have to worry about taking your check-book with you!

    (c) You can always go private and get seen straight away for non-urgent cases if you're fed up with (a)

    For instance, I need an operation on my nose to stop me snoring. The NHS waiting time for that surgery is approx 6 months; if I paid £2000 (I don't have insurance) then I could have it done now. But I don't want to spend £2000 and provided my wife doesn't kill me in the meantime, I'm OK to wait 6 months.

    3. The NHS is cheaper per capita (as is largely the case in the rest of Europe with their partly- or wholly-publicly funded healthcare programs) than healthcare is in the US

    4. That said the NHS is far from perfect - there tends to be too many resources IMO squandered on management and not enough on front-line care (too many chiefs, too few Indians), the waiting times can be a drag etc.

    5. But it is free (by and large) for all at the point of delivery and provides a vital health care service to those who can't afford insurance, and I don't mind helping to pay for it in my taxes - just the thought that a dad like myself can take my toddler to the doctor or A&E without having to worry about how much his treatment is going to cost (even his prescriptions are free; I have to pay £6.65 for mine!) is a massive blessing AFAIC
     
  14. saturneptune

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    That is a ridiculous statement. Any thread that starts an argument with one of the best allies we as Americans have left needs to be closed. Now, I have never been to a doctor in Canada, but have no problems with our VA system here.

    As far as the differences between the two systems, maybe private is better, maybe it isnt. I know that in our country the prices are inflated by malpratice law suits and outrageous profits of pharmacy and other type of medical companies.

    Back to the comment about the "greatest nation on earth" and "you would lose." Lets put things in crystal clear perspective Mr Ps 104, if not for the Grace of God, we could be like the Sudan at the snap of a finger. This nation of ours has a majority of self centered, worldly, soft, whining citizens. The fact of abortion is enough alone to bring the wrath of God. Dont even brag about this nation, like it is something we did. It is a gift of God, ripe for being taken back. Go wave your flag somewhere else.
     
    #14 saturneptune, Nov 21, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 21, 2006
  15. Ps104_33

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    Do you want me to start listing nations that have had to fight for their independance from Great Britain? Dont get me wrong. I love England and the British people and consider my self an Anglophile, but the United States of America has nothing on England as far as being Imperialistic. I am very much appreciative of the fact that Great Britain is probably our only trustworthy ally, but It seems to be slowly changing. Abortion has nothing to do with our flag and the princples that it stands for. It has more to do with the watered down version of Christianity that I find very prevalent on this board.
     
  16. Scott J

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    The way to "fix" the US health care system is to re-introduce the consumer to the market. The consumer is already insulated too much by gov't action and the employer based system. We already have rationing because the employer or gov't is already between the consumer and the supply.

    Whatever the solution is, it must involve the consumer understanding and believing that it is their own money that they are spending.

    One very direct and effective method for doing this would be to start allowing cooperative insurance buying groups that have nothing to do with employers and that could make reasonable healthcare demands of their members, ie. height/weight standards, non-smoking, routine drug screening, alcohol use standards, etc or at least base premiums on controllable risks. All info given would be voluntary but required for membership. This would provide a direct economic incentive to live a healthy lifestyle and reduce demands on the healthcare system.

    At this point, you would have to resist a strong political "urge" to bail out those not willing to take personal responsibility for the cost of their own healthcare coverage.

    Yes, there is some pain involved but responsibility is a necessary part of freedom or else it isn't freedom at all. The "free" market is the best way to achieve maximum value in healthcare.
     
    #16 Scott J, Nov 22, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2006
  17. Scott J

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    The whole argument over WW2 is silly. The Brits and Canadians gave blood and life proportionately much more than the US did. The US gave much more in wealth and resources.

    During the Cold War, it absolutely WAS the cover of American military might that allowed the other western democracies to spend money on socialized medicine and their welfare states. Our military spending was higher than any of the allies and indirectly subsidized their social programs- not to mention that the US was a main financier of Western Europe's post-war reconstruction.
     
  18. KenH

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    Has anyone examined the new health care system in Massachusetts that was the result of bipartisanship in that state? If so, what do you think about it?
     
  19. saturneptune

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    Scott, you have some very good ideas. National health care is not the answer. The government cannot manage anything very well. I would add that maybe something needs to be done about the malpractice suits. If the government wants to get involved, here is an area they can reform. Also, something needs to be done about pharmacy company excessive profits.
     
  20. saturneptune

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    While that may be true, of all people, on this board, it is obvious that this nation is strong, wealthy, and free due to the grace of God, not because of anything we have done. To brag is not a good thing. It could change in the twinkling of an eye.
     

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