Capital Punishment ...

I think you know the answer before you ask. As I said work to improve the system, but don't do away with it. As I said in this life we aren't going to get things perfect.

Are you for the guilty walking free?

 

You're right, so we need to fix the system, not eliminate the punishment.

 

The argument against Capital Punishment based on innocent who receive it is a straw man.

1.Those who oppose Capital Punishment do so even for those who are truly guilty.

2. Those who support Capital Punishment do not support the innocent dying.

3. Doing away with Capital punishment is not the only way to resolve any problems with it.

If there is to be a reasonable and intelligent conversation about this we need to stay away from straw men.

 

I have seen the interview although I can't get to utube from here right now. I do respect your position and recognize that we need to improve our system for a variety of reasons. One of course is the execution of the innocent which we should do all we can to minimize. The other is to speed up the executions so they are tied to the crime and not isolated by the years. Those two goals may seem contradictory but if a proper review is done quickly then hopefully innocent people will be released quicker.

I will answer your direct question and of course it will not be the same answer you would probably give. I am willing to approve and accept a system that executes innocent people. I believe we should do all we can to minimize that but I recognize that it will happen. Those executions will be terrible miscarriages of justice both to the innocent that are executed and the guilty that go free. But in the end order will be maintained and crime will be punished. It will occasionally, hopefully rarely, result in the death of an innocent man or woman, but those deaths will in reality be the result of crime and sin and are an acceptable sacrifice for an ordered society. Of course that is acceptable to me not to the innocent victim.

Those executed in error will not be giving their lives in vain but will be sacrificing them (albeit against their will) for the good of the overall society.

I read a story once of a general from long ago who addressed a man sentenced to die for falling asleep on guard duty. The man initially thought the general would give him clemency. Instead the general told him how his sacrifice would increase the vigilance of men throughout the army. His execution would result in more diligence in watches throughout the service and would save the lives of fellow soldiers who would not be caught unawares. The general allowed the execution to take place but restored the man's honor and allowed him to see the good that would result from his personal misfortune.

I would put those errant executions in the same category.

Of course many will disagree with me, but that is MHO for what its worth.

 

Genesis 9:6 is a general statement concerning the value of human life, not an absolute statement concerning execution by a government, since there was no government at that time. It is probably a reference to the ancient new east practice of the "blood avenger", who was a relative that sought vengence for the death of kin.

BTW, God often used ungodly men to kill others in the O.T. and then punished those same people for their wickedness.

If Gen. 9 were an absolute statement, we could expect to see God putting to death (by man) every person who committed murder in the O.T. That would include Cain (not put to death), Moses (not put to death), David (not put to death).

In the N.T. we have Paul not put to death for the killing of Christians. Paul was a murderer. He considered himself the worst (foremost) of all sinners.

Paul writes in I Tim. 1:15-16 "It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost. (16) yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

Our Lord Jesus showed mercy to Paul as an act of perfect patience that is to be accepted by all believers as an example of how we should treat the worst of sinners, even murderers. (bolded only for emphasis, not "yelling" )

We, as Christians, are called to live a life of perfect love. Not to return evil for evil, but allow God to judge and execute His judgement. God does not need the help of Christians to put someone to death.

Let the ungodly support taking human life. We are called to love with perfect patience.

peace to youraying:

 

Crabtownboy --

I made offer to you (or anyone else) in Post #3 to explain using appropriate scripture (not John Grisham or any other writings but God's Word) what Romans 13:4 means.

I'm still waiting for you to disprove my interpretation of it.

 

Crabtownboy --

I made offer to you (or anyone else) in Post #3 to explain using appropriate scripture (not John Grisham or any other writings but God's Word) what Romans 13:4 means.

I'm still waiting for you to disprove my interpretation of it.

 

First, let me say I appreciate your candid honesty.

Second, let me say that what you have said is frightening.

I suspect it was the same kind of logic that led to the torture and killing of many reform minded Christians by the C.C.

I suspect it will be the same kind of logic that will send millions of Christians to their deaths during the great tribulation.

I do believe you are looking at this issue from a purely secular view, which is always hazardous for us Christians.

peace to youraying:

 

Romans 13:4 is a warning to Christians not to rebel against the Romans because of taxes (perhaps taxes that supported pagan temples). The "sword" is a symbol of authority, which is clear in the context. If you look at the end of Romans chp. 12, you will find Christians are told never to repay evil for evil, but to allow God to enact His judgement on evil.

The symbol for the death penalty in the 1st century was the cross.

No where are Christians ever told to support the taking of another human being's life. It is contrary to our Lord's teaching, specifically I Tim. 1:15-16 among many others.

peace to youraying:

 

By the way, it has been proven over and over again, that the death penalty is not a deterrent to violent crimes or murder. So, this leaves capital punishment to vengeance and self-righteous retribution.

As far as strawmen are concerned, tell that to the one who was killed, albeit by the state.

Do away with guns in society. They were designed to kill.

Cheers,

Jim

 

I'm not for the innocent being killed anymore than I am for the guilty walking.

I don't know how much time you have spend in prison but it is an education. I did some Christian work in Cumming in Ar. for about a year years ago. If you don't watch out it can turn a person to not caring about these folks who are in their on how they rape, take from one another and beat up one another.

 

They are designed to cause a small chunk of metal to travel at extreme speeds. How else will we harvest deer, turkey, elk, etc in an efficient manner?

peace to youraying:

 

The Roman soldiers carried symbols of authority (their uniforms) and they also carried instruments of execution, their swords, spears and knives.

Certainly "the sword" is used symbolically, but it is also a very literal thing to Paul and his readers. Swords intended to wound and kill, not spread butter on bread.

Tradition says that Paul was beheaded. I doubt it was a symbolic sword.

I certainly hope you're not insinuating that everything is somehow symbolic.

Certainly Jesus and His followers used the image of the cross symbolically, however, many of them were also executed on literal crosses.

Just because the scripture uses "the sword" as a shorthand for authority does not change the fact that governments rule on the basis of force, the fear of literal swords (or today, fear of the gun).

 

Exactly. :thumbs: There seems to be some confusion among some here between capital punishment as a moral issue and the mistakes/abuses of the past and present.

I am one of the most vocal supporters of capital punishment on this thread, but I am also concerned about problems in the way we conduct it.

Please, let's not confuse the two subjects or we will never get anywhere in our discussion.