Capital Punishment ...

I worked for 4 years in the criminal division of the Attorney General's office of the state where I lived as a paralegal. Part of my job was to read and summarize trial transcripts on appeal. These transcripts were of murder cases. I read the whole transcript of each case and saw all the photos of the bodies -- ususally several of each person killed.

If you saw the photos of murdered people, you might not feel so eager to abolish capital punishment. I am not saying capital punishment should be emotionally based; I am saying there is a reason God says what He says in Gen. 9 about taking a life.

Think about this:
Is it not diminishing the lives of those murdered to let the murderer live?

 

I did, but happy to address it again.

Gen. 9 is a general statement concerning the value of human life. It is probably a reference to the ancient near east practice of the "blood avenger", which meant a relative seeking vengence for the wrongful death of kin.

It cannot mean government sponsored capital punishment, since there was no government at the time (just Noah and his family)

If it were an absolute statement (that is, God will require the life of every single person who commits murder at the hand of another man), then we could expect to see God bring that about.

Cain was a murderer that God did not require capital punishment. So was Moses (murdered the Egyptian and buried him in the sand) and David (murdered Uriah the Hittite to steal his wife) and Paul (murdered Christians according to his own testimony).

Even if you hold that Gen. 9 means God will cause certain capital punishment to come to murderers, that in no way demands Christians be envolved in seeking the life of anyone. God often, in the O.T., used ungodly men to carry out His vengence, and then punished those men for their wickedness.

The command from I Tim. 1:16 clearly dictates that Christians have an attitude of perfect patience and mercy when dealing with the worst of sinners...even murderers like Paul.

peace to youraying:

 

The passage in John 8 says the woman was "caught in the act". That indicates there were witnesses.

If there were no witnesses, then Jesus could have easily appealed to the O.T. Law to spare the woman, because the witnesses were to be the first to throw the stones. If there were no witnesses, there was no conflict to resolve.

Likely the woman was set up as a test for Jesus. The man was not brought along with the woman. That meant the people who brought her had violated the very same passage of scripture in Lev., which demanded no partiality in judgement.

I don't think it is a coincidence that Jesus mentioned who should be the first to cast stones. That is a direct reference to the O.T. Law that required 2 or 3 witnesses to be the first to cast stones when executing someone.

This was done, I believe, to place the blood of that person on the hands of the witnesses instead of the whole congregation or someone else, should it turn out that the person was innocent and had been falsely charged.

By saying that the "one without sin" is the first to cast a stone sends two messages. Since all humanity is fallen, and lives in sin, we do not have the wisdom, nor the judgement to execute someone. It also gives the authority for execution into the hands of the only one who is without sin, that is God.

Thanks for the comments

peace to youraying:

 

We all have our experiences which mold our lives.

I worked as a police officer for several years during the 1980's. I've seen alot up close. There is no doubt the tragic consequences of these horrid acts of evil.

I supported the death penalty, even after becoming a Christian. Want to know what changed my mind? Carla Faye Tucker....but not in the way you might think.

Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson both supported the death penalty. They both said they believed Carla Faye Tucker had a genuine conversion, and therefore deserved to be spared the death penalty.

I thought, "Is that the test? If we think the person has had a genuine conversion to Christianity, they deserve mercy?"

I began to study the issue from the point of scripture. I am convinced, based on these many passages, that Christians are not to support the death penalty. I believe it is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

I do not believe it deminishes the life of those murdered to allow the murderer to live.

God allowed the murderer Moses to live and he did great things. God allowed the murderer David to live and he did great things. God allowed the murderer Paul to live and he did great things.

How many books in your bible were written by these men who were murderers that had been shown mercy? How many lives have they touched?

I do believe it deminishes us as Christians to accept a position on this issue that is clearly, IMHO, contrary to the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You cannot demonstrate perfect patience, mercy and love, while supporting someone being put to death.

That is the opposite of patience, mercy and love.

peace to youraying:

 

But God did codify capital punishment in the Jewish law. So He did give it as a law. I don't see that officially rescinded anywhere as a legal penalty.

 

I agree that this was a test for Jesus. But it is also true that the man she commited adultery with was not brought forward, and this was required by the Jewish law. So they violated that as well.

I do not agree with you that we should universally apply this one situation to all situations. I think this was a special case.

You are also aware, I assume, that many believe this passage was not in the original manuscripts but added later (although it is a true account).

 

But showing patience, mercy and love does not apply to the state. If that were so, then no one would go to prison for anything, right?

Why just apply patience, mercy and love to murderers?

Why not to rapists? Why not to child molesters? Just forgive them and let them go, right?

 

Numbers 35:33 - "So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it."

 

No, it doesn't. God raises up the righteous and the wicked nations.

I have been very careful to say that Christians should not condone or support the death penalty.

Let the ungodly condone killing.

Let Christians practice the truth, come to the light, and love with perfect patience.

No, that is not right and that is not what I am saying. I have never said we should not imprison those who commit these acts of evil.

No matter what the person has done, however; murderer, rapists, child molestor or whatever; there are three things that will not change.

1. That person, however evil, is still a human being created in the image of God.

2. God does not need anyone's, especially a Christian's, help to end that person's life.

3. We are commanded by our Lord Jesus Christ to follow His example of perfect patience when dealing with the worst of sinners.

peace to youraying:

 

If you were a Jew, living under Jewish law, I would agree with you. But that isn't your point, is it?

Are you saying God established a precedence for the death penality by putting it into Jewish law? Therefore, God is allowing other governments to exercise the death penalty? That is probably correct, but doesn't change anything that I have said.

My concern is the attitudes that Christians take on this issue, not whether any particular government has a death penalty. Let there be no mistake, however, during the end times Christians will be put to death, legally according to the "government". How tragic that those supporting the death penalty today may be establishing the very system that will put to death our brothers and sisters in Christ in the future. But that is a different topic.

Jesus has clearly and repeatedly commanded Christians to live by a higher standard than that of the world. We are to love with perfect patience, showing mercy to the worst of sinners, just as God has shown mercy toward us.

Let the ungodly take the lives of those created in the image of God. Let Christians love with perfect patience and mercy, as we are commanded to do.

peace to youraying:

 

No, I wouldn't.

Protecting your family from an intruder is a different subject than the death penalty. Start a thread on it if you like.

peace to youraying:

 

Who are innocent?
We all deserve death and judgment. We are to stand by the govenments laws as long as they do not contradict scripture. Scripture states that God gave these goverments the sword to execute justice and by all standards of justice it is right and proper. But those 'innocents' you were talking about have an advocate and the governments who were not cautious in their verdicts will give an answer to God.

Capital punishment is right and biblical and those who judge will be held liable to God for where they drop the proverbial ball.

'Pro-life' does not mean do not let anyone die, it means we choose life for unborn and all those who can not speak for themselves.

 

God uses the imperfect system for His own glory.
If it were not for capital punishment your would not be saved my dear brother. Was not the Christ put death being the only true innocent?

Secondly you are quite ignorant of both me and my compassion so I would suggest you stop you ad-homs before you make yourself look even more silly.

I approve of no killing of an innocent, however we are to obey and support those laws which do not contradict God Word as believers. And that you can not deny. Capital punishment was given to Israel by God and in so doing God placed it into the hands of men able to make mistakes. God did not err in do this but knew exactly what He was doing.

Thirdly, Jesus condone capital punishment because He did not come to destroy the law prmarily but find me one place where He spoke out specifically against it. You are trying to build a case from silence and it is a worthless case. Jesus never talked against homosexuality does that mean in your opinion He was for it? I seriously doubt it. These laws you speak of in the OT are not continued in the NT but Capital punishment (the sword) is, and is revealed there as something that God gave to the nations for justice and judgment. To wine against it shows one has not studied the word on the matter. If an innocent has died via such a decree then it aught to be investigated to find out why. There are some cases also where people were declared innocent of a charge and set free only to find out that they did indeed commit such acts and did so again after being set free.

So now you stuck with even allow people to be punished at all.

 

Just spoke out against capital punishment, specifically, in John 8, with the woman caught in adultery.

When Jesus said, "he among you without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her", He wasn't just shaming them. He was referring directly to the O.T. Law concerning execution. In that law, the 2 or 3 witnesses were the first to throw stones at the person being executed.

By changing the requirement from the "2 or 3 witnesses" being the first to throw stones to the "one who is without sin" casting the first stone, Jesus put all proper executions into the hands of the only one who has the wisdom and perfect knowledge to make those decisions. Only God is sinless. Only God should make the decision to execute someone.

Additionally, the Word of God specifically addresses what our attitudes (as Christians) should be toward the worst of sinners...even murderers.

We are told in I Tim. 1:16 that Paul, the murderer of Christians, received mercy for a specific purpose. Jesus showed mercy to Paul as an example of perfect patience in dealing with the worst of sinners. That example is specifically directed toward, and is expected to be followed by, all those who would believe in the future.

Supporting the death penalty in contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Let God use the ungodly to kill. Christians are called to be different.

Let Christians demonstrate perfect patience and love.

peace to youraying:

 

Are you then implying that our omniscient God did not know that there might be an innocent person put to death when He permits the use of the death penalty in Romans 13:4?

(Yes, I know that you believe Romans 13:4 only "allows for" ["tolerates/condones"?] the death penalty rather than promoting it---and that's your right to do so--but that doesn't mean that any other interpretation than yours is, by default, therefore wrong either. ["Agree to disagree" principle]).

Please supply the statistics that in our US legal system of appeals and delays, etc., show the percentage of innocent people that are executed far outnumbers the percentage of innocent victims (and those who were dependent upon that innocent victim for monetary, emotional, and spiritual support) that were killed when that victim was murdered.

Where is your compassion for the victims and those who will now have to spend the rest of their lives without their spouse/parent(s)?

And, apparently, you are not pro-life for the innocent victims and/or their survivors who will no longer have their spouse/parent(s) and all the support they would have given them had they not been murdered.

You did not even address the issue of innocent people and that is strange.[/quote]

And neither have you addressed the issue of the innocent victims and the plight of those whose lives were dependent upon that innocent victim.

And, while you're at it, show me where Jesus Christ taught that it's OK to leave the family of the innocent victim out to fend for themselves and have to pay taxes to feed, house, clothe the one who took the life of their spouse/parent(s).

Your so-called "Christian compassion" doesn't seem to include the ones that were innocent victims of the ones who chose to administer the death penalty on them.

It would be interesting for us see how much of your time, money, and efforts you've also expended on caring for these innocent victims and the ones that will never see their spouse/parent(s) in this life.