Capital Punishment ...

When hanging was a public event and a man or boy was being hanged for picking pockets, people in the crowd were having their pockets picked? Some penalty! Some deterrent!

Cheers,

Jim

 

Surely you are not that nieve? :smilewinkgrin: Prosecutors use death penalty cases to the further their political careers all the time. (not every prosecutor, but many look at it as a political opportunity)

I sat on a murder trial about 15 years ago. A 15 year old boy was charged as an adult.

The boy's uncle claimed the prosecutor threatened him and attempted to coerce testimony.

The police officer who took the statement from the boy (writing the statement himself while the boy spoke), "forgot" to write down very relevant and damaging statements concerning motive...which he testified to at the trial even though it wasn't in his origional statement.

The coroner was very hostile to the defense, doing every thing he could to keep from admitting the deceased man had cocaine in his system at the time of death.

The death penalty is a political battle, not a battle for justice, in this country.

Again, Christians should have no part in supporting the death penalty. We do not have the wisdom or knowledge to implement the death penalty.

Only God does.

peace to youraying:

 

I would want to be pardoned for all my crime. (Answering the fool according to his folly here.)

No, I got your point. You are against the death penalty, period. But finding yourself having to justify something Biblically you're revising your point.

 

God has spoken. When His law is observed in the administration of capital punishment the rest shall hear and fear and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.

You make yourself more wise than God if you assert that capital punishment, consistently and rightly applied is no deterent. But isn't that the tendency of liberals, to put themselves in the place of God?

 

Then you rewrite historical fact, or understand the scripture correctly in context.

Don't accuse me of usurping the wisdom of God.

Cheers,

Jim

 

but it is not my logic, it is yours. If you are saying we shouldn't execute murders and rapist because 1 in 500 might be wrongly convicted. Then by that same logic we could say that all imprisonment should be done away with because some people there might be innocent.

I'll try to explain better, if someone says "We should do away with _________ because some innocent people might be caused to suffer" The problem is the blank. In that blank you put Capitol Punishment, well, others could (using the logic) put "all incarceration" in the blank. That said I don't think for a minute you, or anyone else, would say that. I'm just trying to show where I believe it could lead..

We must have severe punishments for sever crimes and honestly we have turned our jails into comfortable hotels, so a life sentence just ain't that bad to many people.

 

It's now been some 28 posts (and about 2 days) since I issued the challenge to Crabtownboy (or anyone else for that matter) to show me where in the Bible that Jesus approves of leaving the survivors of a murder to fend for themselves because they no longer have the victim of the murderer's "on-the-spot-infliction of capital punishment on his/her victim(s) to depend on for moral, emotional & financial support.

Where's your deeply held "Christian" compassion for these people?

And don't accuse me of using the ploy of the red herring as has been done with at least one previous poster. If you've "bitten off your piece of the cake," then you can't expect to also keep that piece of the cake.

The only alternative I know of for capital punishment in our system of jurisprudence is life time incarceration.

Based on that assumption, I would have to conclude that you must also believe that Jesus supports the innocent taxpayers having to be burdened with footing the bill for having to feed, clothe & shelter the criminals--as well as having to maintain the upkeep on the prisons & pay the staff of not only the "correctional" [That's a subject for a new thread!] staff but also that of the increased manning of the surrounding local law enforcement personnel (because of the increased possibility of breakouts and/or the crimes that may be committed while a "jail-breaker" is still on the loose).

And let's not also forget the hidden "taxation" of reduced property values in the areas where these prisons are located.

I guess that's all fine and dandy with you (and, by extention, with your concept of an "all forgiving, all merciful, and never judgmental" Jesus).

As I said in Post #80, it seems to me that your concept of "Christian compassion" seems a little one-sided.

Again, I assert that it'd be interesting for us here on this thread to find out just exactly how much time, money, effort & hand wringing you've expended in eliminating the plight of the innocent survivors of the criminals' on-the-spot administering of the death penalty of the murderers' victim(s).

Curious minds would love to see just how "fair and balanced" [Sorry FNC!] your deeply held compassion is for those who must now spend the rest of their lives without parent(s) and/or spouse(s) and/or (sad to say) their children---all of which were also created in the image of God and for whom Jesus also shed His precious blood.

 

No, I'm not naive. The law is very stringent and prosecutors know their cases can be overturned if there is not enough evidence. There are legal requirements that have to be met before any prosecutor can ask for the death penalty. Look it up. This I know well having worked in the criminal division of the atty general's office where all we did was handle murder cases on appeal (and habeas corpus petitions from prisoners). Most of the murder cases were life imprisonment; when we had a death penalty case it was a big deal because it was rare, and this was in Georgia. Did you read my previous post? I listed the requirements.

So? How do you know the boy's uncle was telling the truth? Furthermore, is this a death penalty case? If not, it's irrelevant here.

It may be political in some cases, not in most. And even so, you have juries and judges and years and years and years of appeals for the convicted person.

If God supports it in the Bible, we can support it. As I said before, I am not convinced by anything in scripture that the death penalty is wrong.

 

I am going to disagree with you and I want you to understand why.

God uses evil people to bring judgement to other people. He did that when He allowed certain nations to overthrow Israel. After using these nations to punish Israel, God then punished those very nations for their wickedness when overthrowing Israel.

My point is this. Christians do not have to be part of or support this evil. Christians are called to be different.

You have repeatedly said that you see no evidence in scripture to sway your opinion to oppose the death penalty. The I Tim 1:16 passage clearly tells us that Jesus expects Christians to follow His example of perfect patience and mercy when dealing with the worst of sinners. Please read it again.

I am asking you to tell me how it is possible for a Christian to follow the command of Christ to demonstrate perfect patience and mercy to the worst of sinners (even murderers like Paul) and yet still support the death penalty. How, exactly, is that possible?

Let God use ungodly people to kill others.

Let Christians love with perfect patience and love.

peace to youraying:

 

What about the Law? God tells the Jews to kill various people and allow families to kill the murderer of their family members? Don't piece meal the scriptures.

 

From what I am reading here from some, I am beginning to wonder if we have the same God in the Old Testament as we have in the New Testament.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Oi! Explain what you mean Jim.

 

No offense, but I think this is bad hermeneutics. I don't think showing mercy means we abrogate the death penalty. I happen to see it as the way God values life - the life of the victim.

I think God's word supports the idea that he instituted the death penalty to execute justice.

If you look at Rev.19, Jesus is not restraining himself from executing people because He has patience and mercy:

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.

12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.
13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.


Patience, mercy and wrath on sin are all part of God's character. The death penalty reflects that; most of our criminal laws are based on the Bible.

I also believe that those Christians whose consciences are bothered by the death penalty and want to oppose it certainly should.

 

Jim, the God of the OT is the same as the NT. He has mercy, patience, love, and wrath on sin, all perfectly present in balance at all times. There is quite a lot of both God's love and wrath in the NT, just as in the OT.

 

The death penalty is a nation's prerogative and not a heavenly commission. It is, therefore, up to the nation to remove the death penalty.

Most of our laws are not biblical. There are som aspects of law that may have biblical principles, but are certainly not biblical.

Cheers,

Jim

 

I have a Christian friend who is a lawyer and represents people on death row. He has told me about cases that would churn your stomach. Too many times those people are not properly represented and he has had some cases where he sincerely believed the person was innocent of what they were originally tried for. When the person was retied the person was found guilty. I would not want to imagine the possibility of anyone being wrongly executed. In addition, it costs far less to send a person to prison for life, than to execute them.

 

And I know some that have watched murderers go free. There will always be some form of injustice in the world till Christ comes. But I am not some so pious to believe that I am smarter than God who gave the death penalty to the governments and that God designed it to be a deterent to crimes/sin. For those who will believe the worlds view over that of God's truths .. well there is a much larger issue that needs to addressed IMO.

Not trying to sound belittling but I can think of no other way of putting this so I appologize for lack of brain function right now but... This statement above is a very ignorant one at best. Do you even realize the amount of money that it takes to house, feed, guard, ect, ect.., a person for life verses a one time event?

If you are refering to the 'sending' then you are comparing apples with cars. Your statement should read - It costs the same to sentence a person to life in prison as it does to sentence them to death.

 

The problem is man. Too many cases are about politics rather than justice. Too many lazy lawyers on the bottle just before trial when they should be working sober. It is much of a good ol' boy club. Try to get an poor or unethical lawyer disbarred. Think about who the judge once was--a lawyer. Why do not more pastors speak out against other pastors who do wrong? It seldom happens.

I know it sounds wrong. However due to all of the appeals etc. it is more costly in a death penalty case than a life sentence. I am not a lawyer. All I know is what several lawyers have told me.