Cardinal Hosius

Discussion in 'Baptist History' started by Bugman, Jul 14, 2003.

  1. Bugman

    Bugman
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    Cardinal Hosius says, "Were it not that the Baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past 1,200 years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers" (Letters Apud Opera, pp.112, 113).

    I have read this quote many times, but I wonder if anyone can authenticate it. I was reading http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/forgeries/hosius.html and it seems they have determined that it's not a true statment.

    Thanks,

    Bryan
    SDG
     
  2. rsr

    rsr
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    No one can authencicate is because it's obviously bogus.

    Even if the cardinal did say something like this, he must have been referring to anabaptists, which was a catch-all name for heretics, because there were no people commonly known as "Baptists" until the 17th century.
     
  3. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    RSR,

    It seems to me that liberals treat history just like the treat the Bible. Any passage in the Bible that rebukes their wickedness must be an addition or interpolation or redaction or can't possibly mean what it says. And any historical quote that doesn't support their revisionist historical fabrications must be bogus or must be talking about something other than what it is actually talking about.

    Did you read this statement I made in another thread a few days ago?

    1569 is not in the 17th century; it is in the 16th century. So in the 16th century Baptists were numerous and bold in England, so much so as to cause concern in the Queen's cabinet.

    Will you now say that this is also a bogus quote?

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  4. mioque

    mioque
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    Marc
    I'll go out on a limb here and say that both the Hosius quote and the Cecil quote are fabrications.
    Most likely by the 'historians' who quoted them.

    The link posted by Bugman pretty much proves the Hosius quote fraudulent.

    As for the Cecil quote, Cecil himself was opposed to the baptist movement, but the person who's quoted clearly believes baptism is the true service of God. :rolleyes:
     
  5. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Mioque,

    I'll say you went out on a limb - way out!

    You didn't even read the quote correctly. Cecil is not quoting anyone; it is his own statement. The "true service of God" is not the Baptist movement, it is the Anglican church. The statement says that the true worship of God - Anglicanism - was weakened by the increase of Baptists, deriders of religion, irreligious and Epicures.

    Your statement that this is probably a fabrication is.....a fabrication.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  6. rsr

    rsr
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    Mark said:

    You seem to be assuming far more than you know about me, Mark, and I don't like the implications.

    My view on the whole issue of Baptist origins is not either/or and is much more nuanced than can easily be presented on the message board.

    I am quite willing to consider the Cecil reference and am doing so now.

    I still reject the Hosius quote, for now, as being without provenance.

    To all posters, I sense that the discussion in this forum -- on both "sides" -- is becoming more strident, and that should not continue. If I have contributed to that atmosphere, I apologize.

    This forum has a history, so to speak, of civility; it will stay that way.
     
  7. mioque

    mioque
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    OOPS language error. I misinterpreted the word boldness in the quote.
    English is my 3rd language.
    Marc got me here
     
  8. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver
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    To all

    RSR is one of the most fair-minded folks you will find on this board. (I dont know is Stephen wants or needs the defense, but going to do it any way).

    As for the quote, I dont know if the Cardinal made it or not, I wasn't there. Based on the evidence, however, it seems a very remote possibility.

    When evaluating these ancient quotes, one must keep in mind that most of them did not speak English. So, one must consider the motives of the person quoting the passage, whether or not they had seen the original quote, and whether or not that person was competent to translate it. One must also consider whether or not the person purported to have made the statement had any involvment about the group/person/event mentioned. For example, I could make a statement about what the Shinto relgion would be or believed, but since I have little knowledge of that religion, it wouldn't make much difference to the true history of those folks. But assuming that I did make such a statement and recorded it somewhere, and in 400 years someone found it, and viola, a quote to support some notion of that person in the distant future. Would the quote be any more valid 400 years in the future than it would be now? No.

    Somewhere in the history forum a while back we discussed historical evidence, suggest one look that thread up for more about evaluation of historical evidence.

    Jeff
     
  9. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver
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    Folks.

    In the post above I made a slight error to the topic title. It is: Validation of History

    Might be worth a relook.
     

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