Castaway: Picking the scab of Christian accountability

I have stressed discipleship throughout the discussion. (even previously)

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

What is the purpose of a cross?
Jesus died on a cross. Two thieves, one on each side of Jesus, died on crosses. It was the common mode of execution of the day. The cross symbolizes death.
By taking up our cross we die. We die to self.

Here is what Paul said:
"I die daily" (1Cor.15:39)
--Every day he dies. He puts his body to death. In other words he says no to the flesh, and yes to the Spirit of God. This body of flesh must be put to death on a daily basis.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
---Paul speaks in the present tense. "I am crucified with Christ." He is alive, but dead. His life is now the life of Christ. It is Christ that lives in him. That is his life. His life is not his own. Read 1Cor.6:19,20. He has no right to his own life. He was purchased with the blood of Christ.
There are many verses in the Bible about living the crucified life. It is not speaking of physical death, but spiritual death, a denial of self, a death to the carnal self. Christ emphasizes it again when he says: "Let him deny himself." One must deny himself of all the pleasures of the world if he is going to be a disciple of Christ. Be willing to live like Christ lived--sacrificially. The passage is a lesson in discipleship.
DHK

 

You are relating to taking up your cross to persecution and possibly physical dying. It isn't. It is self denial--saying no the carnal, fleshly desires of the body. It is a self discipline in many respects, except that it has more to do with spiritual things than the mundane things of the world. I will give you an example of the latter to illustrate the former.

Not too long ago I had a paper route to supplement my income. Every day of the year (except for about 6 days) the newspaper had to go out, and every day I had to get up at 3:30 a.m. in order to deliver 200 newspapers by 6:30 a.m. If I gave into my flesh, and did what my flesh wanted to do, I would have stayed in and sleep. Some of those mornings it was colder than minus 30. Other mornings there was freezing rain. But the paper had to go out nevertheless--rain or cold.
In that sense I had to crucify my flesh, and do my duty.

In a spiritual sense I have to do the same thing. It is hard to pray, to take time to be alone with God, to discipline oneself to study the Word, to read and meditate on it, to do all that God wants me to do. It takes discipline. It takes discipline to turn off the TV and enter into the prayer closet instead. That is crucifying the flesh (especially if it is the Word Series, the Super Bowl, or the Stanley Cup being played for). I must crucify my flesh, say no to my desires and do what God wants me to do. If the Super Bowl is on Sunday and I have to preach on Sunday evening what should I be doing Sunday afternoon? Watching TV? "I am crucified with Christ nevertheless I live..."
DHK

 

Becuase if you don't disconnect believers from the warnings there is only one option and that is that all Christians are not going to get their little piece of paradise and live happily ever after as we have been taught for so many years now.

If one doesn't disconnect believers from the warnings one will have to admit that they have believed the wrong thing and for some would even have to admit that they have been teaching the wrong thing. And that's hard to do. Pride is awfully powerful sometimes.

And crow doesn't taste good no matter how you sauce it up

 

It is speaking of discipleship.
It is not speaking of losing one's salvation.
It is not speaking of chastisement.
It is speaking of discipleship.

When a Christian doesn't continuously deny himself or take up their cross (as most Christians) then they remain carnal Christians (see 1Cor.3). They will end up losing reward at the judgement seat of Christ. It is possible in some cases that the will be chastized on this earth only. Chasizement is confined to this life only.
It is speaking of discipleship.
DHK

 

That is true, but the Bible also says we will be paid for what we have done. We will "receive" what is due. Loss is not the same as receiving.

So what are these carnal Christians going to receive besides losing reward?

Where is the Biblical support that says chastisement and discipline stop in this life?

 

No, but loss of reward is still there.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1. He shall receive the reward of heaven itself and all the glories of heaven. Just to be with Jesus will be glory in itslelf.
2. It does not say that ALL reward will be lost. He will be reward according to his works. No doubt every Christian will have some reward. You are putting forth some very hypothetical questions that only God has the answers to. He is the judge not I, and not you.

Where? Perhaps in the Book of Hezekiah.
It is in that same book that teaches the Biblical truths of purgatory, indulgences, infant baptism, the assumption of Mary, etc.

You can't argue a doctrine from silence like the Catholics do. It is your obligation to prove the doctrine true from the Bible; not mine. It doesn't say in the Bible, and therefore it is false. There is no place in the Bible where it teaches that chastisement is anywhere else but on the earth. It is your obligation to show me that chastisment is in heaven, or in the Millennial Kingdom, or in your Baptist Purgatory. Have fun! You'll find the answer in the Book of Hezekiah, I'm sure. I find all strange doctrines there.
DHK

 

DHK you contradict yourself in the same post. Here you say that man will not be rewarded for works and then later in your post you say he will be rewarded.

See here you say a person will be rewarded according to his works. That means he is going to get exactly what is do. Do not be fooled, God will not be mocked whatever a mans sows he will reap.

If I sow to the flesh I am going to be paid exactly what is do and I'm going to reap corruption and if I sow to the Spirit then I'm going to be paid exactly what is do and I'm going to receive life.

Why is it that we are the only ones that have to "prove" anything. Why can't you prove your views? I asked you where is the Biblical support that says chastisment is only in this lifetime and you come back with I don't have any.

It amazes me that people that argue against this doctrine continue to demand that we change our views, but yet they can't even support their own views with Scripture. Why should I change my views which are Biblically based for your views that you say you can't even show why you believe something?

 

I have already expounded to you Hebrews chapter 12, the chapter which deals with a father chastising his son. It is an earthly scene. It speaks of chastisement on this earth alone. Examples are given throughout the Bible of God chastening his children on this earth. I can demonstrate that. I beleive that Anannias and Sapphira were believers. God judged them for their hypocrisy. One might say that that was a form of severe chastening. He brought them home sooner than they wanted. In the OT, in the Book of Judges over and over again do we see the nation of Israel going into captivity, God judging or chastening them for their idolatry. The Corinthians abused the Lord's Table. As a result some were weak. Some were sick, and some even died. God judged them, or chastened them. In each case it is on this earth.

You don't have one verse of Scripture to demonstrate that there is chastening in any other place but on earth. Again what do you appeal to? The Book of Hezekiah? Or the Scriptures as we know them? Set forth your case!
DHK

 

In each and every supposed case of earthly chastening, you have proven only one thing. You do not understand God's nature in the least. Since WHEN is He limited to time?

When you give account of yourself at the JSOC, what are you going to say?
(sarcasm) But Lord! You can only chasten me on earth during my mortal existence! (end sarcasm.)

You defeat yourself DHK. You will admit that loss of reward is chastening. You will admit that the JSOC is for Christians. Yet you flatly deny that the JSOC occurs in heaven. Where did you deny it? ....see the above highlighted quotation taken from your OWN HAND. See?


It is just like the JSOC, your OWN life will judge you according to the Word of God. If you do not line up square with it, then it will be made manifest for all to see and you will receive according as your work merits, and EVERY mouth will be stopped.

 

By the way DHK. I also have preached Heb. 12. Wanna copy of it?
Notice...
Heb 12:25
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Heb 12:26
Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Heb 12:27
And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb 12:28
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Heb 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.

The scene here IS NOT earthly.

You will noticde that the condition for receiving this kingdom which cannot be moved is servig God ACCEPTABLY WITH REVERENCE AND GODLY FEAR.

 

What a sweeping generalization.
There are 29 verses in Hebrews chapter 12, and you just inferred that they all referred to the same topic.
That is like saying that 1Cor.3, the entire chapter must refer to the JSOC because verses 11-15 speaks about that scene.
Or maybe the same chapter doesn't mentions the JSOC at all. The whole chapter is speaking of carnal Christians because that is what the first four verses is speaking of. You don't believe that a chapter can contain more than one topic?? All of Hebrews chapter 12 does not speak of chastisement nor of the Kingdom--either one. Your exegesis of it was pitiful, taking Scripture after Scripture out of context.

Consider these verses. The author of Hebrews begins talking of chastening in verse five:

Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord,
--The next six verses he continues along that topic. Then we come to verse 12:

Hebrews 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
--The wherefore indicates a change of topic. It is a change based on what has been said before. He has laid a foundation in the previous verses. Now he is going on to a different topic. The entire chapter is not about chastening. Thus the verses that you quoted after verse 11 are entirely moot. They have nothing to do with the topic.
DHK

 

Of course we have earthly pictures. It's what we understand, or should I say should understand. Christ asked Nicodemus how he was going to believe Him in regard to spiritual matters if he didn't believe the matters that he could go and investigate.

We are given physical examples to explain spiritual truths. Your argument is that chastisment is only on the earth, because only physical examples are given doesn't hold water. There is no Scripture that says chastisment is limited to this earth only.

Scripture does say that we are going to be judged for our works and not only will we suffer loss, but we are going to be paid the exact porition that is due us. We will be rewarded whether good or bad. I don't see how you can say that being rewarded for bad works is going to be anything other than chastisment or discipline.

God's not going to give a big ole hug to the unfaithful, disobedient, non-overcoming saved person. He's going to make sure that they are going to be faithful and obedient before they step out into eternity.

 

Let's just take this portion of the Scripture that you used. Notice the despise not thou the chastening of the Lord.

So what happens to the person that despises the chastening of the Lord in the here and now? God just welcomes them with a big ole hug when they get to heaven and says ah that's okay child you'rre just a little rebel, but that's okay?

 

Yes, he is speaking to his disciples, and he is speaking about forgiveness, not about the kingdom. The parable is exagerrated. Not everything is to be taken literally. The same is true of every parable. It is an earthly story driving home a spiritual truth--usually only one main truth at that.
What are the details of the story (usually missed)
1. A certain king wanted to clear the debts off his books.
2. One servant owed him 10,000 talents which was insolvent so the man and his family was to be sold into slavery in payment for the debt.
3. The servant begged for time promising to pay all if given the chance.
4. Now notice the things that are usually missed in this parable.
--This debtor was optimistic about what he could do if only he had time (26).
--Galilee's total revenue amounted to only 300 talents, and he owed 10,000.
--The detail and exagerration is intentional. It is to shock the reader (listener) as to the enormity of the debt owed (emphasizing also our debt to God).
5. When the master saw the contrite spirit of the servant he forgave all. This was not justice; it was a display of grace.

6. Now that servant had a fellow servant who owed him 100 denarii (a few hundre dollars).
7 Rather than forgive him he grabbed him by the throat and through him into prison till he paid the debt. It was an impossible situation since his chance of earning money was now gone.
8. The other servants were outraged by this action and told their master.
9. The master was furious because he had forgiven his servant and had expected the same behaviour from him. Thus the servant was returned to the jailer's custody until his debt was paid.

What is the lesson to be learned? Remeber it is about forgiveness.
1. God is the King. God is ever merciful and always forgives.
2. All of God's servants have contracted such a great debt that none of them will ever be able to repay him.
3. In wonderful compassion the Lord pays our debt and grants free and full forgiveness. This is applicable to every one of us. We are all his servants.
4. Now suppose one of us wrongs another (Christian or fellow servant). Again it is about forgiveness.
5. When rebuked the fellow servant apologizes and asks forgiveness.
6. But the offended believer refuses his apology. He remains bitter. He wont forgive him. Will the King accept such behaviour among his children. The answer is no. It is not acceptable among believers not to forgive one another.
7. The punishment is obvious. The guilty one will be chastened on this earth and he will suffer loss at the JSOC. Of course any loss of reward at the JSOC is an eternal loss and can never be regained. It never speaks here of salvation.
There is no such thing as "Forgiveness Revoked" neither is there any such thing as Millennial Exclusion.
DHK

 

While I don't agree with Bob's assessment of forgiveness revoked, the Bible says forgive so that you shall be forgiven, because if you don't forgive neither will you be forgiven.

So what does that mean to you that if we don't forgive then we won't be forgiven? (Matthew 6:14-15)

By the way you forgot that we will be paid at the judgment seat of Christ not just suffer loss, although that is something that will happen. However the loss that is suffered is not a loss of something that you never had, but something that you are already in possession of. We are not possessors of crowns/rewards yet, so wonder what we have that we could lose?

Oh wait the Bible tells us already. It's our soul.

 

You are being too literal. Will he cast us into a prison made with mud walls and an iron gate as well?