Casting out spirits and other things

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by thessalonian, Jul 9, 2003.

  1. thessalonian

    thessalonian
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    Simple, straightforward question brought on by my scirpture reading today and a comment by Ray Berrian.

    According to the OSAS definition of salvation (or ES definition for that matter) can one who is not saved cast out evil spirits and cure the sick?

    I look forward to your answers. Thanks.
     
  2. Briguy

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    Hey Thess. How you been?? Hope everything is good for you these days [​IMG]

    Your question really is not answerable. There are no active spiritual gifts given by God, to do what you ask. The answer then, is, that no person can, regardless of there state of salvation. God can however answer prayer and use people in anyway he wants, to do anything he wants. At one time a few Christians, mostly the Apostles, had the power to heal at their will, that gift of healing has since ceased. Thats all for now.

    In Christian Love,
    Brian
     
  3. Sularis

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    The devil can fake many miracles and such - so while yes a non-saved person can do it - you'd better be looking for why Satan let it happen
     
  4. Brother Adam

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    How do we know for sure that these things have actually ceased (tongues, healings) and were not passed down or do not continue today?

    Curiously,
    Bro. Adam
     
  5. MEE

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    They haven't ceased! [​IMG] They were left for "The Church."

    Mark 16:15-20

    15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

    16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

    18)They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

    19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

    20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.

    MEE [​IMG]
     
  6. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    thessalonian said, 'Can one who is not saved cast out evil spirits and cure the sick?

    I will answer in the words of Jesus. 'And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?' [Matthew 12:26] In order to cast out a demon they have to have a power greater than Satan. This power can only come from Almighty God working through a priest, minister or a deeply spiritual person, in my opinion.

    Why would Satan want or allow a non-Christian to exorcise a demon from someone? The Devil tries only to get demons into the lives of human beings, not out of their daily lives.
     
  7. Ray Berrian

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    Let start out with James 5:13-16. One might have to go to a Baptist Church to be told that healing of the body ended with Christ's return to Heaven. I find not limitation of time in James five indicating that after the Apostolate died, that Divine healing was obsolete.

    I do not speak in tongues, but I am no where near placing the 'gift tongues' in the column of Christians who are allowing demons to speak through their bodies and souls. I want to be on the safe side and not 'grieve' or 'quench' the Holy Spirit in my body, soul and spirit.
     
  8. 3AngelsMom

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    Brian,
    Since when is casting out demons using the gift of healing?

    There were people casting out demons WAY before the gifts of the Spirit were given!

    I'm confused, why do you stick the two together?

    God Bless,
    Kelly
     
  9. Briguy

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    Adam, We know the gift of healing is gone because there is not one person alive that can do what those in the early church, with the gift did. Peter, etc... healed everybody that came to him, just like Jesus. Whether believers or not it did not matter. Modern healers will say the "faith" of a person makes a difference, for those with the true gift of healing anothers faith made NO difference. Gifts of the spirit are given to us and for us to use when WE choose. God gives the gift we decide when to use it. A real "healer" could clear a hospital with no problem.

    Kelly, I answered quick yesterday to make a point. I may be wrong as my mind is fuzzy but I do not believe God gave a gift to cast out demons. The demons we see cast out in the new testement were cast out by a select few given direct "special" power from Jesus. The 70 Jesus sent out as well as the Apostles seem to fit that category. As for "the church" now we as individuals do not possess the power to cast out a demon (assuming demons manifest themselves today as they did in the early church - there could be a whole other topic here). However, it goes without saying that God could heal a person or cast a demon out in response to prayer, or just because he feels like, He being God and all. My whole point is that where the power to heal was once up to those with the gift of healing, it now is solely up to God. The demon thing is kind of different as I explained.

    Those our my gut responses, chop away if you must. [​IMG] [​IMG]

    In Love and Truth,
    Brian
     
  10. Briguy

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    Ray, On Tongues, I really, deep down, do not believe that tongue speakes today are tools of Satan. I think they are well intentioned believers who are very emotional and let their emotions get away from them. Also, it is very much a "learned" behavior. People emulate who they are around. Pastor's sons are more likely to become a pastor then the sons of non-pastors. We emulate even more those we really respect, lots of times tongue speakers are well respected.

    Quenching the spirit to me is more when I feel the push of the Spirit to serve someone and I pass by the opportunity. The Spirit speaks but I don't respond so I then have "quenched" the Spirit as He was moving in me.

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  11. thessalonian

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    Hi Brian,

    Glad to see you back. I'm doing fine. You been on vacation (maybe from the board)?

    Thanks for your response. I will narrow the quetion for you. From an apostolic/70 times perspective could one who was not saved cast out demons, heal the sick and perform other miracles. Thanks.
     
  12. trying2understand

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    Thess, I'd like to ask the board if anyone believes that people still may be possessed by evil spirits? Or did that cease at some point in time?

    If evil spirits still may possess a person, who do we see casting them out?
     
  13. Dan Stiles

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    Brian,

    Not all who have been given the gift of healing are hungry for fame and power and money. I know of several healings - in my life time - which can be accounted for by nothing other than prayer and laying on of hands - in a quiet and anonymous manner. Some who have been given this gift may have been given the gift for a certain people or person, or a certain time, but the healing did take place, and the focus was on God in Christ - not the "healer" or the "healee." You may not accept this "anecdotal" evidence, but it exists none the less, and it is further evidence that God can do whatever He chooses to do.
     
  14. bishopnl

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    Briguy...My father has a pastor friend who walked into the ER sector of a hospital, and prayed for everyone in ER, and all of them were healed...everyone in the emergency room. My father was diagnosed with an aneurysm, and another of his pastor friends laid hands on him and prayed, and God healed him.

    and as far as speaking in tongues goes...there are documented accounts of people speaking in tongues, not knowing a certain language, and people of that nationality who did know the language heard and understood them...do you think that's just psycho babble, or what?
     
  15. Briguy

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    Hi Dan,
    What you described does happen and is the result of God healing in response to prayer. It is not the gift of healing, though healing does take place. When those who had the gift of healing, in the early church, used their gift, seriously disabled people were made well, new limbs were grown, etc... There was something different then healing we see today, which is done in God's timing. With the true gift of healing the healing was done in the healers time. You see, spiritual gifts are in our control, we don't wait for God to supply the power, the power is given with the gift.

    Hey Thess. I was gone at a Christian camp with my family for a week and then too busy to post the last few days; thanks for asking. We had a great time, no TV or radio for a week, and praise/ worship and a message once or twice a day, it was a little slice of heaven (so to speak).
    Anyway, No is the answer to your question, no man has the power of which you speak. God could choose to use a person in anyway he wants but the power to do healings, cast out demons and do miracles are not within Christians anymore.

    Hi Ron, You doing Ok?
    The issue of possesion is a strange one. I have never seen a person I felt was possesed in the traditional sense. Those who listen to Satan and carry out his will, like a Jeffery Dahmer(sp?) seem to be around quite a bit but possesions with the weird voices, strange smells, etc... I just don't see that as real and what Satan would need to do in this disspensation.

    God's blessings to all,
    Brian
     
  16. MEE

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    Briguy...My father has a pastor friend who walked into the ER sector of a hospital, and prayed for everyone in ER, and all of them were healed...everyone in the emergency room. My father was diagnosed with an aneurysm, and another of his pastor friends laid hands on him and prayed, and God healed him.

    and as far as speaking in tongues goes...there are documented accounts of people speaking in tongues, not knowing a certain language, and people of that nationality who did know the language heard and understood them...do you think that's just psycho babble, or what?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Bishopnl, fasten your seat belt! You are in for a ride. Remember, you are on a BB. ;)

    Most believe that the 'gifts' that the Lord left for "The Church" no longer exist. [​IMG]

    MEE [​IMG]
     
  17. Briguy

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    Hi Bis... are you knew to BB? If you are knew welcome and good to have you. The story you told about the ER would have made national news because many many people in that ER would not have been christians and would have made sure the story was told. Think about what you said, a whole ER of sick and hurt people healed at once. That kind of thing would have been "big news" and we would have heard about it by now. Stories tend to get blown up with each telling. Please please don't think I am saying you are making the story up, I just believe the story is in error.

    As for Tongues, I have heard stories like you said but never one that was substantiated. They are well intentioned stories told by people who desperately (not in a bad sense) want to prove what they are believing and doing is real. The Bible is clear about several things with tongues. The experience you list doesn't fit some of the basic criteria, not to mention, it is clear to me that the tongues gift, in particular, ceased right after 70ad when it was no longer needed.

    Carol, Only the "miraculous" gifts have ceased, the service gifts remain. I think there is a even split on that point on this board, between those that see the miraculous gifts as having ceased.

    Well, I hope my words won't be considered as "fighten words" and noone should have to use a seatbelt [​IMG] [​IMG]

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  18. thessalonian

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    Briguy,

    "Hey Thess. I was gone at a Christian camp with my family for a week and then too busy to post the last few days; thanks for asking. We had a great time, no TV or radio for a week, and praise/ worship and a message once or twice a day, it was a little slice of heaven (so to speak).
    Anyway, No is the answer to your question, no man has the power of which you speak. God could choose to use a person in anyway he wants but the power to do healings, cast out demons and do miracles are not within Christians anymore."

    Thanks for the response but I tried for clarification and did not get it. Give me the answer only for apostles and the seventy. Would an apostle or one of the 70 have to be saved to perform such miracles? Thanks.
     
  19. Dan Stiles

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    Brian,

    You wrote:
    We're going to disagree on this. I think you're quibbling to maintain your position. Undoubted you will think the same of me. With that, I'll back off and watch, gathering in the testamonies of healings and other gifts, the works of God through His chosen representatives.
     
  20. 3AngelsMom

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    Brian,

    As far as the ability for people to cast out demons today is concerned, I would like to point out a scripture:

    Mat 17:18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
    Mat 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
    Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
    Mat 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

    It appears that even prior to the death of Christ that the Apostles didn't wholly have the power to cast out demons. It seems to me that it was only through prayer and fasting that a mere man would have the power to send a demon running.

    I have seen a girl with a demon in her before. When I was in high school. The IFB pastor spent several HOURS trying to cast out this demon, to NO AVAIL!

    You could be quite right in your assertion that the ability to cast out demons is no longer available.

    God Bless,
    Kelly
     

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