Catholic salvation Vol II.......

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by D28guy, Feb 20, 2004.

  1. D28guy

    D28guy
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    Well, we were advised that that Catholic salvation thread is about to be archived, or obliterated, or whatever happens to them here.(I'm relativly new to this site [​IMG] ) So...in case it is gone before my adressee sees my reponse to him, I thought I'd start VII.(Any others that want to continue can as well, or course)

    Brother Adam,

    I indicated that I spend considerable time in sources like the Catholic Encyclopedia, online Catechism, Catholic apologetic web-sites, and the Vatican web-site, and then you said...

    Yes, we do.

    I really think you have just identified your problem. You told me that you go to the official CC sources as I do, and you said you go and "ask them" about their beliefs and "give them the benefit of the doubt".

    Well, when you ask them do you think they are going to say this to you?...

    "Yes Adam, let me explain to you how we distort the gospel into gospel of works that will not save, and how we worship the mere human being Mary."

    Of course not.

    You left out the most important part...

    Dig into their doctrines and practices, ask them about what they believe, and after you listen to them(giving them the benefit of the doubt), then compare what they believe practice and promote with Gods only truth source, His scriptures.

    If it contradicts, it must be rejected.

    And by the way, do you give us the same "benefit of the doubt" that you give them? Those of us like myself, Singer, Bob Ryan and many others, do you think of us as "those hateful Catholic bashers" who are nothing more than Jack Chick groupies?(I personally do not care for his tract style, btw)

    Or do you keep as an option the possibility that we just might be right?

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  2. D28guy

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    (Here is another from the thread that is closing...)

    Michelle,

    Greetings to you.

    You said...

    You may not worship Mary, I dont know, and you obviously dont believe the CC does. You probably feel that since they use a completly different word for it(Dulia, or Hyperdulia worship, rather than "Latria" worship), that that turns it into merely veneration, and makes everything OK.

    Let me ask you this. Do you believe, as I do, that every day in the baby extermination centers here in the US that little babies are being legally killed?

    What if a representitive of that baby extermination center said to you "Why, we are not killing babies here! We are "eliminating" a "product of conception". Dont you see?"

    Would you say "Oh. Well, that clears that up. I was wrong"

    Of course not.

    The Catholic church is not going to go around telling people they are worshipping Mary, but they are promoting the worship of Mary, none the less. Millions worship her.

    Here is a prayer that was prayed by Pope Pius XII, in 1950...

    "Enraptured by the splendour of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world we cast ourselves into your arms, O immaculate mother of Jesus, and our mother Mary, confident of finding in you our most loving heart, and your most loving heart, the appeasement of our ardent desire and a safe harbour from the tempest which besets us on every side. Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery we adore and praise the purest richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature. From the moment of your conception until the day in which, after your assumption into heaven, he crowned you Queen of the Universe. Crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with eternal truths, fragrant lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume. O conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell. O well beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Bend tenderly, O Mary, over our aching wounds. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed, comfort the poor and the humble, quench hatred, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the holy church. In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognise that they are all brothers. Receive, O most sweet mother, our humble supplication above all obtained for us, that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are all beautiful, O Mary, you are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honour of our people.

    Michelle, I would not pray that prayer if I were told to in front of a firing squad.

    Here are 2 official Catholic prayers that are clearly saying things in prayer to Mary, that should only be said to Almighty God...

    The Memorare

    Remember, O most loving Virgin Mary,
    that never was it known that anyone
    who fled to your protection,"


    It is Amighty God to whom we are to flee for protection.(Psalm 125:2, just one among multitudes)

    We are never told to flee to a mere human being in heaven, like Mary, instead of God.

    "...implored your help,
    or sought your intercession was left unaided."


    Jesus Christ is our heavenly intercessor(Romans 8:34, just one among multitudes), not the sinner saved by grace Mary.

    "Inspired with this confidence, we turn to you,
    O Virgin of virgins, our Mother."


    We are never instructed to "turn to" Mary for our heavenly protection, but to God Almighty.(John 16:33, just one among multitudes.)

    "To you we come, before you we stand,
    sinful and sorrowful."


    The one to who a lost sinner is accountable regarding their sinful and lost condition is Almighty God, not Mary.(Isaiah 45:23, one among multitudes)

    The one to whom a child of God is to come for help with sin problems is Almighty God, not Mary.(Romans 14:12, one among multitudes)

    "O Mother of the Word Incarnate,
    do not despise our petitions,
    but in your mercy hear us and answer us.

    Amen."


    Our petitions are to be taken to Almighty God, in the name of Jesus Christ. Not Mary.(Phillipians 4:6, one among multitudes)

    Hail Holy Queen

    There is no "Holy Queen" to whom we are to "Hail". There is a "King of Kings, and Lord of Lords", but no Queen.(Revelation 19:16)

    In the old testament the "Queen of Heaven" is mentioned a few times, and she is anything but godly.(Jeremiah 44:15-17)

    "Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy,..."

    The scriptures identify God as being the "God of all mercy".(Ephesians 2:4)

    "...our life, our sweetness and our hope!"

    Almighty God is identified as being our "life",(Collosians 3:4) and our "hope".(1 Timothy 1:1)

    "To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve;"

    We are to cry out to God, not Mary.(Luke 18:7)

    "to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping
    in this valley of tears."


    It is to God Himself that we are directed to call upon in our time of need.(Romans 10:14, one among multitudes)

    "Turn then, most gracious advocate,
    thine eyes of mercy toward us,..."


    The Lord Jesus Christ is our advocate, not Mary.(1 John 2:1)

    "...and after this our exile,
    show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus."


    Well, we have an example of one person for sure who has seen the resurrected Lord in glory, John, the human instrument through whom God wrote the book of revelation. And Mary was not needed in any way to "show" Jesus Christ to Him.

    And by the way, when Mary...supposedly..."shows" Jesus to someone in heaven, will Jesus be a helpless little baby being held in His triumphant mothers arms? I only ask because of all those multitudes and multitudes of Catholic and EOC paintings that depic Mary and Jesus that way in heaven.

    Michelle, these prayers are idolatrous and are an abomination. And these are just the proverbial "tip of the iceberg", as they say. We havent even gotten into the apparitions and visitations and shrines and pilgrimages and processions through the streets holding up an idol of Mary to be adored and worshipped by the thousands upon thousands participating in these processions.

    It is sickening, and I cannot imagine how it must sicken, and sadden God.

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  3. mioque

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    D28guy
    I was completely with you on this and then you said the B word....
    Claiming Jack Chick might be right (also didn't help).
     
  4. Brother Adam

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    Okie Dokie. Thanks for doing the work Mike, gettin' all this stuff moved.

    Dig into their doctrines and practices, ask them about what they believe, and after you listen to them(giving them the benefit of the doubt), then compare what they believe practice and promote with Gods only truth source, His scriptures.

    If it contradicts, it must be rejected.


    I agree, however it must also be understand that something can be rejected as anti-biblical if the Bible is silent on the issue, or does not speak directly on the issue. Like doctrines such as the Trinity, OSAS, age of accountability, or culteral issues such as AWANA, woman wearing pants, or musical instruments in church.

    And by the way, do you give us the same "benefit of the doubt" that you give them?

    I'm a Baptist, and most of you are Baptists, since we are studing Catholicism, no, I don't. If you say "Catholics worship Mary and make a god of her" and Catholics say "We do not worship Mary or make a god of her", you are making an assertion about another faith of which you are not a part of. Therefore, you have a higher burden of proof. If someone says "I'm not a homosexual" and you claim "this person is a homosexual", I'm going to give the person the benefit of the doubt, and you have to prove that they are.

    Or do you keep as an option the possibility that we just might be right?

    There are issues I believe protestants validly have with the Catholic Church. I also believe there are many issues protestants are almost hopelessly mixed up about as they try to apply 21st century English culture and customs to the 3rd or 5th century. It gets messy.
     
  5. Doubting Thomas

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    Mike,
    I agree that that particular prayer (The Memorare) is way over the top. It's pretty scary, really. While I can buy much of the rationale surrounding some (but not all) Marian dogmas/titles, I cannot see how this prayer is not outright blasphemy. :eek:
     
  6. Brother Adam

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    Mike,

    First I want to say that those intercessory prayers worry me. But even after studing Catholicism for as long as I have (and I've only now started scratching the surface of the 38 volume set of early Christian writings), I'm just now understanding why on earth a Catholic would say something like that.

    Mariam devotion is something that is totally optional in the Catholic Church. No one is required to ever say a rosary.

    Some Catholics are very devoted to and protective of Mary. I don't really have a problem with people wanting to protect who she is- I mean, if your going to start ripping on Jesus' mommy, I'll probably rip you a new one.

    In the Catholic culture this devotion can go way beyond what 20th century English speaking reformed Christians would think is acceptable.

    But when you get married and fall intimately and deeply in love with your wife you may find that you are using some of the same terminology as you see in the prayers:

    I'll give one example here. I might tell my wife
    "You are my whole life, my everything, all I work for, you give me hope for a better tomorrow".

    Am I placing my wife above God? No way Jose. Not in the least. But being madly in love with my wife words like that will naturally flow out of me. Check out the devotion between two people in the Song of Songs.

    I really don't think this angers God. Love and devotion is something that can give wholly to God and still have more than we started with to give to others.

    [ February 20, 2004, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: Brother Adam ]
     
  7. D28guy

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    mioque,

    For the life of me, I cant find a word starting with B that would be so offensive. What are you referring to?

    I didnt say he was right about everything. I even said I dont like cartoon tracts. Concerning Jack Chick, I have heard people say that some of his tracts get into communism and stuff like that. Also, people have told me about someone, cant remember his name but some Alberto person. I dont know anything about those tracts either.

    I'm not familiar with any of those things, but concerning his regular catholic tracts, I have never read one of those kind that I thought he was in error about. The things he believes are wrong about the CC I believe are in fact wrong.

    But I dont like his style.

    When I asked Adam if he considers that "we" might be right, I meant those who argue against some of the CC beliefs and practices on here...not Jack Chick. I have not read all of Jack Chicks tracts.

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  8. D28guy

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    Brother Adam,

    1st of all, I was born and raised Catholic. 8 years of parochial school, religion class, mass every Sunday, catechism, teen classes(CCD, or something like that), etc.

    Concerning catholics not worshipping Mary, because they say they dont worship Mary, let me ask you the same thing I asked Michelle...

    I assume you believe abortion is the killing of a small child. If you ask someone from the baby extermination centers how they can kill little babies, they are going to say "We are not killing babies". Are you going to say "Oh. I'm sorry, I thought you were. Hey everybody, they're not killing babies, because they just told me they arent!"

    Its silly.

    They will even say its not a baby, its a "product of conception". Does that make it all OK?

    How do we know they are killing babies? Because we know the truth, regardless of what they say, and because we have seen the evidence...the little baby parts(little legs, arms, etc) that they throw away.

    Concerning Mary, we have the evidence. I have posted some of the prayers. We have seen the shrines, the processions, the "adoration", the excessive "veneration", the paintings, the images...and the way the images are treated, etc.

    We do not judge things by "what people say". O.J. Simpson said he didnt kill his wife, yet we all know the truth. Clinton said "I never had sexual relations with that woman, Ms Lewinski, not even once." yet we all know the truth.

    We judge things by holding them up against the word of God and rejecting that which contradicts.

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  9. dumbox1

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    Hi Singer,

    At long last, here's the post I owe you.

    For those who don't remember (or don't care), Singer had asked me for comments on a post from Trying2Understand (i.e., Ron) from May of 2003, which Singer had archived someplace. Unfortunately, we don't have access to the rest of the original thread, so I'm having to comment on Ron's post as a "stand-alone thing" (which, obviously, it wasn't originally).

    So, my apologies to Ron if I misunderstand him due to my not having the context in which his post was made. Or, for that matter, if I misunderstand him for some other reason. Psychic, I'm not.

    So, here goes. I'll quote a bit of Ron's post, comment on it, lather, rinse, repeat, etc.

    This suggests to me that Ron's post was a somewhat frustrated response to the sort of good-natured goading that makes this message board such a source of amusement to all of us who frequent it. Obviously, his post fits within the context of a larger discussion, which (not to belabor the point) I ain't got.

    No real argument here, although Ron might have fleshed it out a bit. Christ established one Church. He had a reason for doing so. That reason was the salvation of souls.

    He gave the Church the "Great Commission" (Matt 28:18-20) to make it, essentially, a delivery mechanism for disciple-making, baptizing, and "teaching them to observe all that I have commanded."

    I would guess that Baptists, etc., wouldn't quibble too much with this concept (although they'd argue mightly, I imagine, over where this Church is to be found!)

    A bit overstated. I would say that it's in the Church Christ established that we find the fullness of these things -- that is, the most that's available. But the Holy Spirit gets around -- one of the nice aspects of being omnipresent, I suppose.

    Not exactly "ecumenically sensitive" in its phrasing, but not really disputable. What you do is up to you, what I do is up to me, etc. (And this board isn't really noted for its ecumenical sensitivity -- with a few exceptions, of course.

    I believe this is a reference to the Real Presence in the Eucharist. If so, then a more precise statement would be "you'll have to meet Him in a Church which has maintained apostolic succession and therefore has valid orders and a valid Eucharist" (e.g. Catholic, Orthodox, etc.)

    This leaves a whole lot unsaid, of course -- in particular, the realization that although God sets up "ordinary" channels, He can also work outside them. But I assume you don't want a book from me. (If so, I'll post it sometime around 2010 at this rate!)

    Have a great weekend,

    Mark H.
     
  10. dumbox1

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    I was wondering the same thing. The only "B-word" I saw was "BobRyan."

    (No offense, Bob).

    Mark
     
  11. Brother Adam

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    Mike,

    Many people were Catholics that are now staunch athiests and Baptists. I too was once Catholic. Because someone was Catholic or even went to Catholic school doesn't necessarily mean they know much about Catholicism.

    They will even say its not a baby, its a "product of conception". Does that make it all OK?

    This example doesn't work because we are discussing beliefs a person is adhering to.

    Concerning Mary, we have the evidence. I have posted some of the prayers. We have seen the shrines, the processions, the "adoration", the excessive "veneration", the paintings, the images...and the way the images are treated, etc.

    Let's assume for a minute that there are Catholics who "worship" Mary, how does this qualify the person as a god?
     
  12. D28guy

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    BrotherAdam,

    I'm not sure what you mean. Could you clarify that a bit?

    Thanks.

    Gotta get to work, be back later.

    Blessings to all,

    Mike
     
  13. Brother Adam

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    No problem.

    "Worship" in our language basically can mean two things, but doesn't necessarily mean both at once, though it could.

    1- Worship can be reverance for a diety

    or

    2- Worship can be intense love or admiration.

    Now I can say I "worship" my wife without turning her into a diety. It's just how the language works.

    Why must a Catholic be worshipping Mary as a diety? Why can't Mariam devotion be just Mariam devotion- that is- "intense love or admiration for"?

    I'm sorry if I'm still not being clear, its hard to explain.
     
  14. BobRyan

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    Michelle, I would not pray that prayer if I were told to in front of a firing squad.

    Here are 2 official Catholic prayers that are clearly saying things in prayer to Mary, that should only be said to Almighty God...
    </font>[/QUOTE]The truth is that in the dark ages a number of people did face the firing squad for refusing to worship Mary "in prayer".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. BobRyan

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    All Powerful Mary –

    To the non-Critical Catholic reader - nothing "raises a question". These are perfect examples.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. Brother Adam

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    Naw, only you Bob ;)
     
  17. DHK

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    That is not the way I remember it; nor do I believe it is now. Every Catholic is required to go to confession, and then do penance. Many times do I remember being commanded by the priest to "say 10 Hail Mary's and 2 Our Father's" for my penance after going to confession. That was a requirement, not an option. Often prayers to Mary (especially the "Hail Mary") is said in public. The veneration of Mary has been even that much more encouraged by the present pope.

    That is the problem. Who is she? Is she someone who is worthy enough to gain our adoration, that we should venerate, revere, worship, etc. Worship belongs only to God. In that respect then, Catholics have made Mary a god. This is idolatry. Catholics will not submit to that because they have redefined words, come up with different definitions of words, use different definitions of words, and in general play games of semanitics. What is necessary to do is define your terms as the Bible defines them, not as a Catholic encyclopedia, or a magesterium, or a catechism defines them. When speaking of doctrine, doctrine is defined by the Bible.

    You use the word "culture," an interesting word. I have labored in other cultures, even in third world countries. When the culture goes contrary to the Bible it is the culture that must change not the Bible. The Bible is the one absolute that does not change. In an age of multiculturalism, when our society is trying to tolerate and promote one another's "culture" that does not mean that we tolerate the sin that comes with it. "This devotion" in "Catholic culture" is still sin. Sin is sin in the Bible. Culture doesn't change the nature of sin.
    If you were a missionary to an African tribe where the culture was that all the women were topless, would you just fit into that culture, or would you try to teach them from the Bible principles of modesty (which would be against their culture)?

    You get married and take your wife to that African tribe as your missionary-wife, and she'll make sure that those natives will be modestly clothed in a hurry!!
    On another note: I am married, and I never give my wife the devotion that I give God. I never give my wife the devotion that Catholics give to Mary. I never give my wife the devotion that I gave to Mary when I was a Catholic. To admit to any of the above statements is absolutely absurd. To do so would be to commit idolatry; for to do so would be to pray to her, and to worship her; a practice condemned in both OT and NT.

    BobRyan has given you enough examples that you know that Catholics have gone far deeper than the example that you give. You give an simple example of the expression of love for your wife using some figurative, even exagerrated language. (If you were dead serious and literal in your meaning you wouldn't be a Christian). "You are my whole life." You are either speaking as an unbeliever or figuratively.
    The problem with Catholics is that they mean what they say, when they pray such prayers to Mary. They mean that she is the Queen of Heaven, that she can answer prayer, that she has the right to accept adoration just like Christ does.
    Worship of Mary--mariolotry is sin. It is idolatry; an abomination in the sight of God.

    (How about giving the Bible the benefit of the doubt.)
    DHK
     
  18. Meercat

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    M28guy and all others who read this post- May God continue to shed His grace on us all

    M28, I have no problem with Pope Pius XII's prayer about casting myself into the arms of Mary. Those same harms held our beloved Savior! Talk about following in the footsteps of Jesus! I like to think of myself following in the footsteps of Jesus from His youth to His adulthood culminating with His most sorrowful Passion for us sinners. Afterall, don't you see yourself in differing developmental stages in your own Christian walk with Him? Catholics HONOR Mary just like we should honor (or hold in very high esteem our own parents!), but we ADORE and WORSHIP Christ Jesus our SAVIOUR. Does this help you understand? When I said I wasn't trying to "hoodwink" you, I meant it and still do! I'm not an "exceptional" Catholic unless you think a Protestant converting to Catholicism is exceptional. After much study and research from history AND the BIBLE, I made my choice. We do NOT worship Mary but we certainly do appreciate her for accepting the will of God. You know? It's funny how we erect statues and celebrate a holiday in memory of George Washington and Abraham Lincoln as the "fathers" of our country, but absolutely NONE of us consider this form of "hyperdulia" or "extra-ordinary" honor to be a form of worship, yet when Catholics express their appreciation to Mary and OF Mary, we are accused of idolatry. - huh??!? - God bless! - Meercat
     
  19. D28guy

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    BrotherAdam,

    You said...

    Because the official positions of the CC regarding Mary go waaaay beyond simply expressing admiration for her. They adress her as if she were a goddess.

    They attribute to her powers and protections that only God can provide, in effect making her into a goddess. They kneel before her statues and kiss her feet. They carry images of her in processions through the streets of cities for thousands to sing her praises. The most famous catholic prayer, worldwide, is of course the Rosary. In it there are 150 prayers prayed repetitiously to Mary, compared to about 15 to Almighty God. Does that not seem a bit "out of wack" to you, if the CC worships God, but only admires Mary?

    I have shared official CC sanctioned prayers articulated to Mary, and gone through them sentance by sentance, and shown that the scriptures identify Almighty God as being the one to whom those sentiments and requests are to be directed to, yet they are all directed to the mere human being Mary.

    Simply telling millions of catholics, worldwide, in all time zones, that they can pray to Mary at any time credits Mary with omnipresence, and attribute that no mere human being has...only God.

    Let me share again the testimonies of some exceedingly prominant Catholics concerning Mary, that Bob Ryan posted. Please prayefully consider whether this is appropriate...

    "Mary is all powerful with her divine Son who grants all graces to mankind through her" - Pope Benedict XV, Fausto Appetente Die

    "All power is given to Thee [Mary] in heaven and on earth that at the command of Mary all obey, even God. Alphonsus de Liguori, Roman Catholic Cardinal and "saint", from his book The Glories of Mary

    "Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; The Glories of Mary. (pp 180-181)

    "She is omnipotent, because by her prayers she obtains whatever SHE wills. (The Glories of Mary pp 182)

    "With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to venerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because,
    while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race."
    - Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus

    These things are exceedingly problematic and inappropriate. If the word "worship" bothers you(although I do not know how anyone can miss that Mary is being worshipped), then I'll say it another way.

    This is IDOLATRY. These things are idolatrous and are an abomination.

    And these are not some excentric Catholics over in a corner somewhere. These are Popes and highly regarded Catholic thinkers and theologians. The prayers I posted earlier are officially sanctioned catholic prayers. The Rosary is as official as anything can be in the Catholic world.

    The Catholic Church sponsers the processions of Mary idolatry, the kissing of the feet of statues of Mary, and the veneration of paintings of Mary, and gives their "blessing" to all of the Mary apperitions, visitations and shrines devoted to her.

    It is highly improper. It is idolatrous.

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  20. D28guy

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    Meercat,

    Please refer to my post just above this one to Adam. It should cover your post as well.

    God bless,

    Mike
     

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