Catholic salvation Vol II.......

The key word in your post, Meercat, is "in memory." I have seen thousands of Catholics bowing down and kneeling before various statues (such as the stations of the cross) and praying before them. This is in direct violation of the Ten Commandments. I have never seen people bowing down to any statue of Abraham Lincoln and practicing necromancy like they do with Mary and some of the other saints (a practice condemned in the Bible). Mary is dead. Praying to the dead is condemned. People were taken out and stoned to death for such practices.
DHK

 

quote:
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Originally posted by Brother Adam:

Mariam devotion is something that is totally optional in the Catholic Church. No one is required to ever say a rosary.
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DHK said

A lot of people in the dark ages - got killed simply for refusing to venerate Mary and pray to the dead.

There is "no other Christian church" today that has that history on ANY doctrine that they now claim is "optional".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Lyin', since you're so keen on sources and details, please tell us where we can read about firing squads in the dark ages. Don't tell me this is just another one of your blatant lies. It would be such a pleasant surprise to see you actually come up with a real reference.

 

Mike,

Thank you for your concerns. I realize that those quotes sound like idolatry. I'm not even saying they aren't. Like I told others I have serious issues with Catholicism, but I'm going to make sure I know what all is going on before I even try to start going on the offense. I don't really automatically take anyone's "word for it".

I'm going to discuss what you have said with other Catholics and they will need to come up with more than "well, it doesn't really mean that". But I'm not going to automatically assume they have no defense either.

God Bless,
Bro. Adam

 

Adam, what's going on is idolatry. I don't know how you don't see it.

Queen of Heaven ?
Mother of God ?
Full of Grace ?
At the command of Mary, all obey, even God ?
Calling her omnipotent ?
Holy Mother of the Church ?
Born without stain of original sin ?

Sounds like worship, to me, and all the insults I have had thrown at me don't change it. Catholics worship Mary. Period.

 

That's just it Bro. Curtis, it's how you "see it". I don't think you would want me to take the word of a Mormon for how they "see it". I've seen enough stuff in my short "days" to know that it is very easy to make not only the Bible, but other texts say things that they don't.

Queen of Heaven ? - If you consider that there are 1) different levels of reward in heaven and 2) consider the Old Testament theology, this isn't biblically impossible. It doesn't turn her into a God. I remain very septical about it though.

Mother of God ? - Well duh. You can't seperate Christs' natures.

Full of Grace ? - that's what the angel said

At the command of Mary, all obey, even God ?

Yup, even though Jesus' time had not yet come, he honored his mom. And he is God. I'm not convinced that your taking it with the intent the text was written, but I'm not convinced that they don't elavate her to a pedastel that is way too high either.

Calling her omnipotent ? - A protestant did that.

Holy Mother of the Church ? - All those in heaven are holy as God is holy. Catholics state a case that Mary was put in the spiritual care of the church (individuals who have faith in Christ), and thus is the spiritual mother of the church. This also doesn't necessarily raise her to a god.

Born without stain of original sin ? - God is free to do whatever he pleases. Although your right, it does sound fishy.


I beleive it very well could be idolatry, but my point it is, things aren't always as they seem. James said faith alone isn't good enough for salvation, and it seems like that is what he is saying, but as both of us know, Baptists have an explaination for what James intends.

 

Can hatred of Mary be so great as to cause a Christian to despise the words recorded in the scriptures, and then complain that they're the ones being insulted? Apparently so.

 

You are right - that is very hard to miss.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Now what if we "twist history" and the argument such that IF you DON't worship Mary in the terms above THEN you "are really hating Mary. "

What if we ask of all who refuse those terms of worship "Why do you hate Mary so much that you refuse to worship her in these terms? What is wrong?"

And yet - some are so blinded to objectivity and truth on these subjects - that this is exactly where they will go.

In Christ,

Bob

 

For the record - Harley has found "one nail" to hang his hat on. "Full of Grace" is a term used of Stephen. We should not deny them that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Translation just ain't easy sometimes.

 

Can hatred of Mary be so great as to cause a Christian to despise the words recorded in the scriptures, and then complain that they're the ones being insulted? Apparently so. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Nice try. I know what the scriptures say about Mary. You guys have twisted it to mean Mary can somehow bestow grace onto us. Mary's grace came from the Lord. Herself, she had NO power.

Your claim that I hate Mary is just stupid. I don't consider her to be any sort of deity, the only role in my salvation she played is over 2000 years ago, and it's done. Making up lies like she's forever virgin, well if you loved her, you wouldn't lie to people about her.

 

Good points Bro Curtis. I just love seeing that go unchallenged.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Um, Bob, maybe you forgot already, but a while ago you made 3 posts in a row and acknowledged that it was challenged. It's ok, we all have senior moments like that!

 

In fact there has been no challenge against the charge that they are re-spinning history so that IF you fail to worship Mary in Prayer THEN you "must hate Mary" - as stated in the post above. And I have yet to seem them challenge "that detail".

See what paying attention will do for you?

Bob

 

It doesn't seem to help you much. You just missed the boat again by denying that your Mary worship nonsense was never challenged.

 

This suggests to me that Ron's post was a somewhat frustrated response to the sort of good-natured goading that makes this message board such a source of amusement to all of us who frequent it. Obviously, his post fits within the context of a larger discussion, which (not to belabor the point) I ain't got.

No real argument here, although Ron might have fleshed it out a bit. Christ established one Church. He had a reason for doing so. That reason was the salvation of souls.

He gave the Church the "Great Commission" (Matt 28:18-20) to make it, essentially, a delivery mechanism for disciple-making, baptizing, and "teaching them to observe all that I have commanded."

I would guess that Baptists, etc., wouldn't quibble too much with this concept (although they'd argue mightly, I imagine, over where this Church is to be found!)

A bit overstated. I would say that it's in the Church Christ established that we find the fullness of these things -- that is, the most that's available. But the Holy Spirit gets around -- one of the nice aspects of being omnipresent, I suppose.

Not exactly "ecumenically sensitive" in its phrasing, but not really disputable. What you do is up to you, what I do is up to me, etc. (And this board isn't really noted for its ecumenical sensitivity -- with a few exceptions, of course.

I believe this is a reference to the Real Presence in the Eucharist. If so, then a more precise statement would be "you'll have to meet Him in a Church which has maintained apostolic succession and therefore has valid orders and a valid Eucharist" (e.g. Catholic, Orthodox, etc.)

This leaves a whole lot unsaid, of course -- in particular, the realization that although God sets up "ordinary" channels, He can also work outside them. But I assume you don't want a book from me. (If so, I'll post it sometime around 2010 at this rate!)

Have a great weekend,

Mark H. </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks for your response, MarkH.
We could conclude this right here by saying there is no answer for "where this Church is to be found!" as you said. I'm sure our dialogue won't solve the issue for all time anyhow. There was no disagreement over what the word "church" meant to the early christians because there was no Catholic Church to compare it with. That should tell us something very important.

Anyhow, you Catholics have tried through 23 pages
already to convince the rest of us that there is salvation outside of the Catholic Church via our qualifications as imperfect Catholics who also fall under God's grace. (And that we misrepresent you in your support of the views contributed by the Vatican Council II that says otherwise).

So if it makes you feel better to call me a Catholic by default (whether I want to be or not), so be it.


And if you want to consider me baptized in the Catholic faith via "baptism by desire" (whether I want to be or not), so be it.

And if you want to consider yourself filled with the Holy Spirit by the mechanism of water baptism , so be it.

And if you want to think that chewing on some bread is causing "Christ in you", so be it.

But, you have convinced me that there is salvation outside the Catholic Church so this issue is useless and I will continue to remain just where I am at.....OUTSIDE !!

Thanks,
Singer

 

M28guy-

How can you compare what the abortionist will tell you to justify what they do, to Catholics "justifying worship" of Mary? First of all, a killing is a killing, worhip is worship and so on. When I say Catholics don't worship Mary, I provided proof from our Catechism which is a compendium of Catholic teaching, and I also believe that to worship anyone else but God would violate THE commandment not worship any other god or have any other god before HIM. Mary is NOT a god of any kind, but we highly venerate her for her "Fiat"......that is, when she said to the Angel Gabriel "be it done unto me according to thy word" thus consenting to be the mother of our LORD. What's so wrong about that? - Meercat