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Catholicism, Baptist and Baptism

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by riverm, Dec 16, 2005.

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  1. jesusrocks

    jesusrocks New Member

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    Frogman,

    So then did Christ's entering into those events have no purpose other than to establish headship? ... and therefore our participation in them only to establish obedience?
     
    #21 jesusrocks, Dec 16, 2005
  2. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    This is the first command of obedience given to believers only.

    It establishes fellowship through public identification with Christ and His Church.

    Without proper scriptural baptism there is no ground of obedience nor of fellowship.

    Eternal life is not fellowship.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #22 Frogman, Dec 16, 2005
  3. jesusrocks

    jesusrocks New Member

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    So then what is the point? Why do we need fellowship and obedience-- are they efficacious towards eternal life? How important are fellowship and obedience?
     
    #23 jesusrocks, Dec 16, 2005
  4. riverm

    riverm New Member

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    Greetings Bro. Dallas:

    I’d like to first clear up any misconceptions that Wesley taught salvation by baptism. That’s simply not the case and maybe I didn’t make my self-clear in terms of expounding on ‘prevenient’ grace. As I stated earlier, prevenient grace is the idea that the moving of the Holy Spirit in a person’s life before he accepts Christ as his Savior. It is the Holy Spirit that reproves man of his complete sinfulness, and shows man of his need of Christ. It is the Holy Spirit that moves into the hearts of man to convict him of his need of salvation. The important key here is that if any reformation takes place in a sinner’s life, it is due to the operation of the Holy Spirit, and not of any good works of man.

    Some scripture that supports prevenient grace:

    Genesis 6:3, here we see the spirit of the Lord as He tries to strive with man to bring mankind to God.

    Jer 31:3, here we see God saying to Israel that with loving kindness He has drawn thee.

    John 6:44, here we see how the spirit of grace works: No man can come to me, except the father which hath sent me draw him…

    John 12:32, Jesus says that He will be lifted up and He will draw all men unto Him.

    These are just a few verses, and Wesley believed that Baptism accelerates this prevenient grace. To be frank, I accepted Christ at an early age, 8 years old; actually I was ‘scared’ into it by my upbringing. I was baptized when I was 26, but it didn’t seem to click with me until I was 31, at that time was when I felt I was starting the process of turning from disobedience and began moving towards obedience. I guess I subscribe to the theology that salvation is a process and all this is just a part of my spiritual journey.

    Blessings
     
    #24 riverm, Dec 16, 2005
  5. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Dear jesusrocks, (grin, forgot again)sorry.

    If either fellowship or gospel obedience (baptism) are efficacious towards eternal life, then did Christ redeem anyone or do they redeem themselves by their obedience?

    If by their obedience then eternal life is by works and if by works, grace is no more grace.

    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
    #25 Frogman, Dec 16, 2005
  6. jesusrocks

    jesusrocks New Member

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    I did not claim such, but am merely trying to understand your brief posts.

    Are faith, obedience, and works exclusive of one another? Can one have faith without obedience and works? What sort of faith is that?

    Eternal life comes by the Redemption merited by Christ on the Cross of Calvary, for sure. I'm not sure how obedience or good works would contradict this (for one acting in good works out of obedience would not be doing so in denial of Jesus' Saving Sacrifice).
     
    #26 jesusrocks, Dec 16, 2005
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In the end "there are no shortcuts"

    Romans 10 is right on the money!!

    And Peter cuts through the clutter as well in his statement on "what saves" --

    No magic sacraments - no magic "powers to mark the soul" none of the superstitious notions of the dark ages are found in the text of scripture.

    It is not a question of "are you better off" taking the Bible way -- there is ONLY the Bible way!! All Catholics must take that same way -- no shortcuts. They must "choose Christ" they must submit to His Word, the work of His Holy Spirit on the heart. A deliberate choice.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #27 BobRyan, Dec 16, 2005
  8. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Dear Brother Bob,
    Exactly:

    You said:
    It is not a question of "are you better off" taking the Bible way -- there is ONLY the Bible way!! All Catholics must take that same way -- no shortcuts. They must "choose Christ" they must submit to His Word, the work of His Holy Spirit on the heart. A deliberate choice.

    But that deliberate choice is clearly taught in scripture to be God's deliberate choice.

    Ephesians 1 makes this abundantly clear.

    May God Bless,
    Bro. Dallas
     
    #28 Frogman, Dec 16, 2005
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Indeed God chose first.

    But His choice was "God so Loved the World that He Gave" - "God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself" 2 Cor 5.

    His choice was to Give Christ "As the Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world".

    His sovereign choice was "to draw all mankind to Himself" John 12:32

    This is all God choosing - without man doing anything to cause that choice.

    But the choice that you see in Romans 10 is the choice of man - enabled by the drawing of "all mankind" and the "convicting of the World of sin and righteousness and judgment" -- all done by God.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #29 BobRyan, Dec 16, 2005
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    God who "is not partial" Rom 2:11 is "Not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance" 2Peter 3.

    This is the choice of God -

    Why is it thought of as a bad thing - that the "impartial God" who is "not willing for any should perish" should supernaturally ENABLE totally depraved, sinful humanity to "choose" as Romans 10 and Rev 3 shows "IF anyone hears AND OPENS the door I WILL come in"??

    Choose no matter what the cost as He "already did" in the case of the sinless angels, as He already did with sinless perfect holy Adam and Eve?

    Why does this view of such an impartial, all loving God - appear "bad" to some?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #30 BobRyan, Dec 16, 2005
  11. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Dear Brother Bob,
    How can God's choice not be perfectly accomplished?

    And all by the counsel of His will--Eph. 1:11.

    How can 'our choice' supercede that of God?

    If something is true it is true whether I believe it is true or not, right? Or else that which is truth is only that which I believe to be true, right?

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #31 Frogman, Dec 16, 2005
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