"Catholicism".

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by John3v36, Mar 12, 2003.

  1. John3v36

    John3v36
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    I was on another sit and saw the below. the topic was "Catholicism".
    found on
    http://www.flyfreeministries.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=121
    What are your thoughts
    ---------------------------------------------


    Well, my thoughts would be that it is a word that has behind it a great deal of history, that everyone agrees extends at least 1,600 years, if not longer.
    ----------------------------------------------------

    1600 years? That would mean the Catholic Church was founded around the beginning of the fifth century. Who is responsible for the founding of this incredibly important institution? The way I see it, the Catholic Church is closer to 1970 years old and was founded by Jesus Christ. Any other Baptists have thoughts on this?


    "Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

    - Saint Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]
     
  2. LandonL

    LandonL
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    In my opinion, the ROMAN Catholic church started around 252-257 A.D. Catholic literally means universal in the sense of the Apostles' Creed(http://www.reformed.org/documents/apostles_creed.html), and I believe all Christians are a part of the catholic church in that sense. I turn to the account of Cyprian, a 3rd century Carthaginean bishop and prominent theologian. Allow me to quote from the iLUMINA Encyclopedia:

    "Cyprian next engaged in a rebaptism controversy with Stephen, the bishop of Rome. At issue was the validity of baptisms performed by the Novationists (a rival group of Christians who formed a string of seperate churches in the wake of the Decian persecution and the readmission controversy). Stephen of Rome argued for acceptance, Cyprian against. FOR THE FIRST TIME, a bishop of Rome used his reputation as successor to the apostle Peter to CLAIM AUTHORITY over the other bishops[empasis mine]."

    Those are my reasons, but I encourage you to do your own study.
     
  3. Helen

    Helen
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    John, the Roman Catholic church does not predate Constantine. Its very organization and terminology proclaim that, for it is a mirror of the Roman political system, even to taking the name of Pope for its head, which was one of Constantine's titles. The Roman Catholic church is a combination of Christian terminology in the statements of the catechism, some Bible verses, the Roman political system, and the paganism rampant at the time. Statues of gods and goddesses became renamed as saints. This made it easy for the Roman citizens to 'switch' religions -- and they were still able to pray to the same gods and goddesses they had before, now under the disguise of 'intercessors' with God. No big deal.

    The same incense was used, Mary was transformed from a dark-haired Jewish teenager to a blonde and blue-eyed Japhethite -- a simple transformation accomplished by renaming the head goddess who was a deified Semiramis of legend.

    The communal meal was no longer communal as it was in the Christian church. It was transformed into the "Eucharist", using the perfectly round sun wafer they already knew about. No more broken bread. And magical things were said to happen -- the sun wafer would magically, via an incantation by the priest, become the real body of Jesus. The wine was refused the people, just as it was during the pagan rites. Only the priests were allowed to drink it.

    Only the priests really understood what it was all about.

    That was the same as before with the pagan religions. No big deal.

    It was just very, very different from the Christianity which had come out of Jerusalem and Galilee, where each man and woman could have an individual relationship with God without the aid of a priest.

    The Catholic church, almost from its very beginning, had almost nothing to do with biblical Christianity. Jupiter/Zeus just changed names again.

    No big deal.
     
  4. John3v36

    John3v36
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    Helan when you say in you above post "No big deal" over and over are you saying you don't have a problem with what was just said , are you being sarcastic, or someting diffrent?

    And you are usaly pretty good with links

    do you have a few links to show what you just said?

    [​IMG] Saint John
     
  5. Helen

    Helen
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    sarcasm, John. It was the biggest deal in the world to so distort the original faith.

    Yes, there are links. There is tons of stuff regarding this history, but I'm going to bed right now. It's only a little after nine here on the west coast, but I have trying to beat the rains coming in tomorrow night by getting a ton of stuff weeded on this acre before it goes to seed (it's been that warm that early here -- even the chickens are laying up a storm -- want some eggs?) -- and I'm exhausted. I had wanted to get more done tonight, but I spent quite a bit of time on one of the posts in the Fundamentalist forum (check the one entitled something like "Do you read this verse the way I do" -- something like that).

    I'm drooping...

    Check Google -- that's what I would be doing right now for you. Plug in words like "Roman Catholic" along with "history" "paganism" "Simon Magus" "Constantine" etc. There are tons of Catholic apologetic sites in all of these areas, so you have to look a bit, but the actual history will be there.

    Check the origin of the word "pope" and some of the other of the Pope's titles. I can't even remember the one I am trying to think of.

    Maybe tomorrow. My eyes are shutting.

    Blessings.
     
  6. HankD

    HankD
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    Let us not forget the sea of blood shed by the Church of Rome starting about 800AD when the Church of Rome became the "Holy" Roman Empire, the "pope" becoming the "pontifex maximus" or the supreme ruler of the world, the same title given to the caesars.
    Historians estimate the slaughter to be in the multiple millions: The slaughter of the Waldenses, hugenots, anabaptists... the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, The Latin Inquisition...
    All this sanctioned by the "Vicar of Christ" on earth. The papacy, a supposed unbroken succession of the apostleship of Peter.

    Did Christ ever command His apostles to strangle or burn at the stake those who would not bow the knee?

    Matthew 11
    28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
    29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
    30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

    By their fruits you will know them?

    The weight of guilt (imo) lies upon the elite and educated hiearchy of the Church of Rome, not the masses of the laity held in their bondage of fear.

    HankD

    [ March 13, 2003, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]
     
  7. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    OK, just a few historical innaccuracies to correct...

    Firstly, I've never understood what this obsession with Constantine amongst Protestants is all about. What became the Catholic church was an evolving creature; it didn't just 'happen' overnight when Constantine had his vision on the Milvian Bridge. All Constantine did was to tolerate Christianity, not make it the state religion. If you're looking for a watershed (and as I've said I don't think you should particularly) then a better candidate is the banning of paganism by Theodosius at the end of the fourth century, when Christianity did de facto become the state religion. At that point, as Gibbon points out, without the yardstick of paganism against which to judge, pagan influences crept into the church eg: adoration of relics etc. Surely you're not saying that the church which gave us gems of theological importance such as the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, and the Canon of the New Testament was apostate?

    The comments of posters so far take no account of or make no comment on the Orthodox Church, which was one and the same by and large until the schism of 1054.

    The Catholic Church in no way became the Holy Roman Empire in 800. The HRE was a separate political entity consisting mainly of present-day Germany. It was linked in part to the Papacy, as were all states in Christian Europe at that time, but it should in no way be regarded as it's agent; indeed, one of the defining features of the history of the HRE is its conflicts with the Papacy eg: the Investiture struggle between Pope Gregory VII and Emperor Henry II in the eleventh century.

    So, can we get our facts right please?

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  8. HankD

    HankD
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    "On Christmas Day in 800, while Charlemagne knelt in prayer in Saint Peter's in Rome, Pope Leo III placed a golden crown on the bowed head of the king. Charlemagne is said to have been surprised by the coronation, declaring that he would not have come into the church had he known the pope's plan. However, some historians say the pope would not have dared to act without Charlemagne's knowledge."

    http://www.lucidcafe.com/library/96apr/charlemagne.html

    "Otto III in 996 entered Rome and after putting down a faction of Roman nobles forced the election of his own cousin as Pope Gregory V"

    Earle E. Cairns, Christianity through the centuries pg. 214.

    "and they two shall be one flesh"

    HankD

    [ March 13, 2003, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]
     
  9. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    And this proves your claim that the RCC 'became' the HRE how, exactly?

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  10. HankD

    HankD
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    The Church of Rome and the Roman Empire became "one flesh".

    Hence the name "holy" Roman Empire.

    HankD
     
  11. rufus

    rufus
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    Helen, KEEP UP THE EXCELLENT POSTING!

    rufus [​IMG]
     

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