Catholics divided

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Acts 1:8, Mar 6, 2003.

  1. Acts 1:8

    Acts 1:8
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    After reading an article on the NY Times, I'm lead to believe that many Catholics aren't falling for the whole papel infalibility scheme. It's futher proof that what comes out of the Vatican is often completely out of line with reality.

    "On the prospects of war with Iraq, almost all of them find themselves in a bind: as conservative Catholics, they follow the pope, but as conservative Americans, they support the president."

    "Polls have shown that while many American Catholics revere the pope, they disregard church teaching on issues like birth control and the death penalty."

    "Religious leaders of nearly every denomination and faith have condemned an American attack on Iraq. Only the Southern Baptist Convention and some evangelical and Pentecostal leaders have rallied behind the president. Jewish leaders are deeply split."


    I personally think the Pope should keep his mouth shut about Iraq. I seriously doubt he knows anything substantial about the situation. Millions of Iraqis are probably wishing he'd shut up as well. Lord knows they can't wait to be liberated from the oppression of an evil dictator. Mark my words, they will be cheering in the streets when Saddaam is gone.
     
  2. Johnv

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    The Pope speaking about Iraq is not a matter of papal infallibility.

    If you had any remote knowlege about the RCC you'd know that. But it's easier for you to lie about the RCC because it supports your anti-catholic agenda. Last time I checked, that's a violation of the 9th commandment.

    Additionally, the fact that you suppor the SBC speaking about Iraq, but you don't support the Pope speaking about it, well, that makes you a hypocrite.
     
  3. UncleRay

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    Dear Born Again,

    You said
    How many times does it have to be esplained to ju?
    Or is it that you choose not to understand? :confused:

    Pope John Paul II has never made an ex cathedra statement. The Church has never said that everything the pope says is infallibile.

    You said I personally think the Pope should keep his mouth shut . I assume you say that because you believe that your education and contact with world leaders is superior to that of the pope. Now I don't always agree with the pope or the president but they both have responsibilities and obligations to state their beliefs.

    As for papel , isn't Ron Papel that guy who sells the Pocket Fisherman and some kind of vegetable dicer? :D

    Grace and peace,
    Uncle Ray
     
  4. Sherrie

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    Everyone is intitled to their own opinion. There are many on this board alone. I agree with your opinion.

    But only because the Pope is in charge of the Roman Empire. USA business is none of his business.

    Sherrie :D
     
  5. Acts 1:8

    Acts 1:8
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    Regarding the Pope and his worldy stance on the war, perhaps he should read scripture. He would then realize that God is sovereign over all the nations and that this is simply one more peice of the puzzle being added into place concerning this current age we live in. It's laughable to think he will have any sway on the course of events...

    Read the Bible..

    Job 12:19 He leads priests away stripped
    and overthrows men long established.

    Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases

    2 Chronicles 20:5-6
    Then Jehoshaphat stood up in the assembly of Judah and Jerusalem at the temple of the LORD in the front of the new courtyard and said: "O LORD , God of our fathers, are you not the God who is in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. Power and might are in your hand, and no one can withstand you.


    Regarding infalibility, I don't really care if the Pope was speaking in his "official capacity" or not. The mere fact that Popes claim to have the ability to be infalible whenever feels like being infalible is a crock. Do Popes have a little magic switch they flip to turn on their infalibility, say something, and then turn it back off?

    The entire basis of infalibility is utterly rediculous. It gives the blind followers of RCC doctrine the impression that they are being lead by someone so powerful that they have the attribute of perfection. But hey, I have to give the RCC credit.. I can't think of a better way to control the masses...
     
  6. 3AngelsMom

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    Born Again,

    Where have you been?

    I see it too. All the time.

    Why does our observation that there are divisions among them have to be anticatholic propaganda?

    It is an observation that Catholics are making too.

    God Bless
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Please list the last 5 "ex cathedra" statements in history and show how you 'know' they were being made 'ex cathedra'.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. neal4christ

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    What's wrong with supporting the SBC's position? I attend SEBTS and we recently had a "Just War Forum" with a four member panel, one of which was Dr. Land, Head of Ethics. It was very good. I was undecided on the whole issue before the forum, but now I feel there is a "just cause" for war with Iraq.

    Neal
     
  9. LaRae

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    Please list the last 5 "ex cathedra" statements in history and show how you 'know' they were being made 'ex cathedra'.

    In Christ,

    Bob
    </font>[/QUOTE]You must be confused...there haven't been 5 made yet. Perhaps some more study (using accurate sources) would be good.


    LaRae
     
  10. Doubting Thomas

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    Well then, how many (if any) "ex-cathedra" statements have there been? What were they, and how are we supposed to know that they were in fact "ex cathedra" statements rather than just the usual garden-variety papal pronouncements?
     
  11. LaRae

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    Well then, how many (if any) "ex-cathedra" statements have there been? What were they, and how are we supposed to know that they were in fact "ex cathedra" statements rather than just the usual garden-variety papal pronouncements? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Here's a clip I have saved from another conversation...."ex-cathedra" means "from the Chair" (as in the Chair of St Peter):

    The following comes from section 25 of Lumen Gentium, the dogmatic Constitution on the Church produced by Vatican II:

    And this infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed His Church to be endowed in defining doctrine of faith and morals, extends as far as the deposit of Revelation extends, which must be religiously guarded and faithfully expounded. And this is the infallibility which the Roman Pontiff, the head of the college of bishops, enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith, by a definitive act he proclaims a doctrine of faith or morals.


    As you can see, the qualifications are:

    1) The pope intends, as pope, to make a defining, infallible, doctrinal statement, AND

    2) He makes it in a form which leaves no doubt of his intention to do just that, AND

    3) The matter concerns faith or morals.

    In brief, there can be no question about whether a statement is an ex cathedra pronouncement -- because it will say exactly that. There is therefore no such thing as an "accidental" or an unintentional ex cathedra definition of a dogma. In addition, remember that the MATTER must be faith or morals -- the pope could not, for example, make an "infallible" statement about the best recipe for cheesecake, or define dogmatically whether the music of Beethoven is superior to that of Elvis.
    -----------------------------------------
    Also you can find more info on EWTN and the Vatican website. I believe there have been 2 ex cathedra statments made by a Pope...none by the current Pope. The 2 made by the pope concern the Immaculate Conception and Assumption.

    ------------------------------------
    Some Catholics wrongly believe that ONLY "ex cathedra" Papal Statements are
    infallible. This would limit infallible dogma to two, the Immaculate Conception
    and the Assumption. Obviously, only 2 infallible dogmas in 2,000 years sounds
    very sparse. Some theologians incorrectly proliferate a notion that ONLY the
    Extraordinary Magisterium is infallible. Even Raymond Brown has abandoned
    this notion. Ergo, propositions like the one you mention, that the doctrine of the
    perpetual virginity of the B.V.M. is NOT infallible, are ridiculous. If in doubt, the
    BEST resource is Denziger's Enchiridion Symbolorum. Next, is Ludwig Ott's
    monumental work, "The Fundamentals of Dogma." There, one can find the
    theological distinctions made between divinely revealed truths (DE FIDE) and
    those which are only theologically certain.


    DE FIDE is the highest level of theological/doctrinal truth. They are INFALLIBLE
    statements by their very nature, like the Holy Trinity, The Real Presence, etc.

    Next, are VERITATES CATHOLICAE (catholic truths) like the existence of God which can be known through reason alone.

    Finally, there are four types of THEOLOGICAL OPINIONS:

    1. SENTENTIA FIDEI PROXIMA (proximate to the Faith) like the Trinity can be known only through Revelation.

    2. SENTENTIA CERTA (theologically certain) like Monogenism, i.e., that the human race came from one set of parents.

    3. SENTENTIA COMMUNIA (common teaching) like the Church's prohibition & proscription of artificial contraception.

    4. SENTENTIA PROBABILIS (probable teaching) like the premise that the Virgin Mary died before being Assumed into Heaven.

    According to Pope Pius XII in Humani Generis & Vatican II in Lumen Gentium #25, even non-infallible teachings are to receive the submission of mind and will of the faithful. While not requiring the ASSENT OF FAITH, they CANNOT be disputed nor rejected publicly and the benefit of the doubt must be given to the
    one possessing the fullness of teaching authority. The heterodox concept of a
    dual magisteria, i.e., the theologians, is not based on scriptural nor traditional grounds. Some have gone as far as to propose a triple magisteria, the body of believers. While it is true that as a whole, the body of believers is infallible in that SENSUS FIDEI is that the Church as the Mystical Body cannot be in error on
    matters of faith and morals, the TEACHING AUTHORITY (Magisterium) resides solely with the Roman Pontiff and the College of Bishops in union with him.
     
  12. Doubting Thomas

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    LaRae,
    Thanks for the clarification.
     
  13. Doubting Thomas

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    Another question:
    Was Peter making an infallible statement when in 1 Peter 5:1-4 he addressed the elders (presbyters) as being shepherds (pastors) and overseers (bishops), thereby implying the three titles were descriptions of one office? (Also did you note how Peter said that he himself was a "fellow elder"?)

    This is consistent with Paul addressing the Ephesian elders in Acts 20:17-35 as being overseers (bishops), shepherding (pastoring) the church of God (verse 28). (Elders and Bishops are used interchangeably again in Titus 1:5-9)

    If Peter was speaking "ex cathedra" here (which one can safely assume since this is inspired Scripture we're talking about!), why did those who followed Peter and the rest of apostles introduce innovation into the church by making two distinct offices out of the one biblical office thereby beginning the creation of an unbiblical heirarchy? I mean, should we trust inspired Scripture or the uninspired writings of "early church fathers", their proximity in time to the apostles notwithstanding?
     
  14. BobRyan

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    Fine - please show a Catholic authorotative source that will list all the Ex-Cathedra statements in hisotry and that Catholic leaders will agree to as in "that is the only list".

    Or is it in fact "whatever you happen to feel like selecting".

    As for Catholics "divided" - isn't it interesting that you DO find a great many that reject purgatory, or indulgences or infallibility or some other key teaching of the RCC while remaining Catholic?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. Acts 1:8

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    Interesting indeed. I have several theories.
    I believe to a large degree that many catholics sport being catholic as a cultural/trendy thing just as much as they do a religious one. I've seen this first hand, but you can also tell by the amount of pride many catholics place in the RCC.

    Also, Catholics don't believe in the assurance of salvation even when the Bible (which they claim to have given us) says "These things are written so you may know you have eternal life" so how can they leave even when they disagree? In thier minds, they'd be damned to hell if they left the RCC.
     
  16. Acts 1:8

    Acts 1:8
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    I think I'm gonna head off to Walmart tommorrow and buy me an ex cathedra chair, park it in front of the computer, plug it in, turn that bad-boy up to full strength infalibility, log onto the baptist board, and Wooooo Eeeeeee! You folks better watch out! [​IMG]

    [ April 06, 2003, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: The Baptist Pope ]
     
  17. Acts 1:8

    Acts 1:8
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    I hereby proclaim that I, Chris Lofton, am hereby the official Baptist Pope.

    Hereby,
    Pope Chris Lofton the First

    You may also call me Popus Baptus Heroic Chris
     
  18. BobRyan

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    Wait a minute! Are you sitting in your new chair or did you just say that as a joke?

    If you were sitting in your chair - then I assume you were speaking infallibly - and would therefore want to ask - can you also turn bread into the body of Christ?

    Do you have that "magic power"?

    Can you forgive sin?

    If you die - would it be ok to start praying to you and asking you for favors?

    Would you mind if we offerred prayers and incense on your "altars"?

    We want to be sure we get it right this time.

    Bob
     
  19. Acts 1:8

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    Don't we all want to get it right? With my new ex cathedra chair I don't have to worry about that anymore now do I? Hmmmm?

    As the Baptist Pope sitting in my new ex cathedra chair, my ability to make wise cracks and discern the truth about other so called popes is unfathomable.... Got that? Unfathomably infalible!!!!
     
  20. LandonL

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    Wow, guys. I think the whole ex cathedra thing is a load of bull too, but last time I checked, a mocking attitude wasn't on the list of the fruits of the spirit. In fact, it's condemned in Proverbs. I get annoyed when my Catholic friends(who definitely aren't Christian, btw), mock my belief in eternal security, or my disbelief in transubstantiation.

    We're told to confront Catholicism's false doctrines, but nowhere does it say to mock them.

    --In Christ, Landon
     

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