Cause and Effect/Conditions of Salvation

There is one split nanosecond when the Calvinist, or those leaning hard towards Calvinism, sometimes 'appear' to unlocked of the ‘robot’ syndrome, and for this split nanosecond somehow manages to make one single ‘free will choice’ of salvation………and then ZAP! Free will vanishes as fast as it mysteriously arrived. Saved for all eternity regardless of any thing they do from thence forward.

But then again, according to the manner in which JK and others interpret the Scripture, even then God in reality does the choosing and not man. Could it be that by sometimes mentioning that ‘flash’ or ‘milesecond’ of so-called 'free will' they in reality are using it more as a convenient sophistic tool than a firm belief? Could it be possible that the following statement is true? "Their freewill is no free will at all."

 

One of the main purposes of this thread was to allow those stating that there are no conditions to salvation explain how that can be possible apart from determinism. As a side issue, those claiming that there are no conditions yet say man must accept the free gift, how can one accept or reject a free gift without an act of the will?

This thread provides an excellent opportunity for some to do something positive, and show clearly how myself, or others, are misunderstanding them or misrepresenting their views when a comparison is drawn between their views and those of the deterministic system of Calvinism. I for one am listening and will consider carefully the presentation of your views. :wavey:

 

HP: The real question remains JK, i.e., but how does God choose?? Is it arbitrary selection? If so, double predestination rules. Explain to the list how God chooses without double predestination being an unavoidable consequence.

If you asked me, I would say that God chooses who will be saved by those that He foreknows will voluntarily fulfill the stated conditions of salvation He has set forth. No double predestination or predestination of the damned here.

 

JK, re-read post #68. Is that what you really wanted to say?

 

HP: Certainly, but if you hold to ‘all are born sinners’ (Original sin) you have God blaming men and punishing men for sin they in reality could not have avoided. Coming from your position of original sin they do not ‘deserve’ hell in the least. It was simply their fate. In that case, justice would demand they have an opportunity at mercy afforded them if God is going to punish them for such an unavoidable fate.

HP: Deserve ‘mercy’ or an ‘opportunity to receive mercy?’ Again, that depends. If God is going to blame men for something they could not have avoided, justice would demand that all receive an opportunity to receive mercy.

HP: Are you starting to see it depends on whether or not men are sinners due to their own formed selfish intents or whether they were created that way?

HP: Again, that would depend on why they are sinners. If no other possibility existed other than to be a sinner, justice would demand an opportunity of salvation be afforded them. If they are willing rebels due to their own choices, having a contrary choice possible at least in the first portion of entering into a moral state, no. God in that case is under no obligation to provide an escape period.

Do you see how the notion of original sin, either in agreement to or in opposition of, drives the conclusions to your questions?

 

HP: No, God owes me nothing having created me with the power of contrary choice and a free will to choose.

 

HP: God does the keeping, but will not keep apart from my fulfilling the conditions He sets forth. Here is just one of Gods warning to you and me as Gentile believers: Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Forgive me DHK, but I see your position as one of stark contradictions. You say there are no conditions to salvation and yet you say one must accept the gift. Can you tell us how accepting a gift is not meeting a condition? Would not you also say that if one rejects the gift one cannot be saved? Both accepting and rejecting involve the formation of an intent of the will by man, so why again is accepting a gift not the fulfilling of a condition in order to receive salvation?

 

Lori, although I believe I know where you are coming from, and as such would basically agree with you, is there not clear promises of God that He can and will forsake those that forsake him?
De 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
De 31:17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day,

Ro 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning,

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.