Cause verses Allows

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Oct 18, 2009.

  1. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    What say you people?

    Jhn 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
    Jhn 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.


    Pilate, having the power to protect Jesus, allowed Jesus to be murdered.

    Now Pilate did not cause the people to kill Jesus, he only allowed it.

    Was Pilate innocent of the murder?

    :jesus:
     
  2. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    May I ask, who planned the crucifixion of Jesus?

    The Jews?
    Pilate?
    Satan?
    God?

    :godisgood:
     
  3. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Isa 53:10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

    :jesus:
     
  4. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    God planned it through Pilate, Satan, Judas, the Jews and the Romans. And the bible says it was His pleasure to do so.

    Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
     
  5. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    God planned a murder?

    If we plan a murder we are guilty of sin are we not?

    :jesus:
     
  6. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    First of all, God does not sin. The OT is full of accounts in which God commanded the total destruction of cities, which included many children and innocents. Does this make God a murderer? God forbid!

    In the case of Jesus, God planned a sacrifice for sin, which meant that the shedding of blood must occur or there is no remission. He used the sinfulness of man to accomplish this.

    Another thought.....in all the OT accounts of God's "killing" of people, it was always a judgment against them. It was not out of a sinful desire to kill. The death of Christ was also a judgment against sin. In all of these cases, I think God carried out justice and fulfilled His word "the wages of sin is death".
     
  7. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    There's a huge difference between "planning" and "allowing". God allows sin as a part and parcel of us having free will. When a grievous sin is committed, however, God always has the last word. We should not confuse God having the last word with God condining the sin which led up to it.
     
  8. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Are you saying that God only "allowed" Christ to die and had nothing to do with the planning of it?
     
  9. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    You're thinking of God planning the same way you or I would plan something God isn't so limited.
     
  10. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    Someplace in the Bible God says, "I cause good and I cause evil." Something to that effect. Can never remember the citation.
     
  11. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
     
  12. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    I don't think you answered her question. Did God plan Jesus' murder or did He just allow it?

    :thumbsup:
     
  13. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    God planned the sacrifice of Himself for the remission of sin before He created anything, even before sin existed.

    Did He have to use murder by sinful men?

    The Father could have taken a tree, pulled it up by the roots and slain Jesus Himself, maybe in the town square. Wouldn't the sacrifice still have been made?

    :thumbsup:
     
  14. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hmmmm. Yes, I think He did. Jesus' died because of sin and at the hands of sin. What if His death had been accidental? :eek:

    Don't think so. Jesus willingly laid down His life at the hands of sinners, for sin.
     
  15. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    This verse has come up on the BB many times before. The word translated as "evil" is more aptly translated as "calamity."

    http://www.marcschooley.com/blog/?p=86

    He is not the only one to say this.

    Also, the word is "calamity" or "disaster" in most modern versions.

    God does not create evil; God is good and abhors evil. Evil is not a thing anyway; it is a result of sin or it is sin acting out.
     
  16. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Doesn't matter what translation you choose, God creates the disasters and clamities that kill and destroy people. Yet God is good and abhors evil, as you rightly said. Even the evil which He has created for His glory.

    Do you then believe diasters and clamities are a "good" thing? What is the opposite of "good"? "Bad" maybe? Then God creates the bad even though He is good.

    :jesus:
     
    #16 steaver, Oct 19, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2009
  17. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0

    But Steaver, when God does these things, they are not evil!!!!! God does not murder; when people die as a result of what God is doing, or what He does through others (as what happened to many in the OT), it was execution of His judgment. That is not murder.

    To say a God who abhors evil actually creates it is contradictory, and I consider it a horrific view. It reminds me of dualism - good and evil are part of each other.


    "God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all." This is in 1 John somewhere.
     
  18. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Why did it have to be this way?

    :jesus:
     
  19. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    What was God's judgment on Job?
     
  20. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Job 2:10But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
     

Share This Page

Loading...