caution re changing a church

What thrills me to my core is when the people sing a psalm, spiritual song, or hymn and break into a spontaneous outpouring of praise to Holy God. No one has to ask for a "clap of praise to the Lord." It just happens. When it has to be contrived, it is probably more about being seen as "good" in front of other church members than true heartfelt praise toward God.

Check out this preview from "Over the Grave: The Issac Watts Project" an album arranged and performed by the worship team at Sojourn. The song is "Refuge."

Refuge
Adapted from Isaac Watts' "Psalm 31, part 1" by Neil Robbins

Unto Your hands, O God of truth, my spirit I commit
You have redeemed my soul from death and saved me from the pit
The passions of my hope and fear maintain a doubtful strife
While sorrow, pain, and sin conspire to take away my life

I know my days are in Your hands
Though I draw near to dust
You are the God in whom I trust
You are my refuge
So lift up your voice and sing aloud
And praise Him, all you saints
How wondrous is His grace
He is our refuge

Make Your most beloved face to shine upon me now
And save me for Your mercy’s sake, for I am lost without
While in my haste I’m quick to say, “Where is Your help for me?”
But You attend me when I pray, and You have heard my plea

I know my days are in Your hands
Though I draw near to dust
You are the God in whom I trust
You are my refuge
So lift up your voice and sing aloud
And praise Him, all you saints
How wondrous is His grace
He is our refuge

http://sojournchurch.com/wp-content/uploads/09 Refuge.mp3

Here is another from the same album. The song is "Warrior."

Warrior

David rejoiced in God alone
He was raised by grace to an earthly throne
But Christ the son demands our praise
For His kingdom has no end of days

Lord, you rejoice in victory
When another lost soul bows to its knee
Rising tide of righteousness
With the shield of truth upon your breast

Oh the warrior!

Honor and majesty divine
Around his sacred temple shine
Grace and might so long foretold
In crowns of glory, not of gold

Your hand shall find out every foe
And as a fiery furnace glows
With raging heat and living coals
They will feel your wrath upon their souls

Oh the warrior will conquer all
The world will fall before His feet

Earth and sea will give up their dead
The nations gathered before him
A day of glory, a day of dread
No one dares now ignore him
http://sojournchurch.com/wp-content/uploads/01 Warrior.mp3

 

To the OP: this is one reason our church has begun having two separate services. Some attend BOTH!

Paul didn't: 1 Corinthians 9

How dare you combat "this is the way we've always done it" with logic!

<sarcasm>Because pizza parties are "entertainment" and entertainment has no part of worshipping God!!!! How can you not understand that??? <end sarcasm>

Seriously, people believe that worship must be extremely reverent and for that God enjoyed David's nekkid dance (even though David's wife disaproved).



Just a quick hit and run post on what jumped out at me from the first page of the thread.

 

Josh, your not alone.....I'm right there with you only I live in NW New Jersey. If your area is like mine then I think that they are catering to lapsed Catholics who make up much of the landscape. I go into the church library & take out classic Christian books that have sat on the shelves & are like new because absolutely nobody has bothered to read them.

At least Ive finally found a pastor who has embraced Reformed theology & is baptistic but I think his sermons (which I get excited about) are always pretty basic in order to educate that Catholic in the seat & I think it largely is not understood. I think most of them would prefer a contemporary TV preacher who tells them what they want to hear "Love, Love, Love"/ Koom By Ahhh .....it's very depressing.

Still brother I trudge on....reading my bible & books that are edifying.

As Tom requests, I will pray for you. Please respond in kind.

Blessings

 

How true friend. It seems to me that those who just don't want to deal with the fact that God might use other methods want to throw around the idea "things of the world" when that is nothing but a lame excuse. I believe a wise Pastor in seeking God's wisdom will know his sheep and his field then mold his ministry accordingly.

The real problem is people are afraid of the six letter word "change.' Even the Lord's ministry and teaching was a "change" from the "traditional" teaching of His day. I am not saying that the message changes, but sometimes the methods used to communicate the message may change. Everyone on this board has dealt with change just by being on this board. Remember when we did not communicate with computers?

Condemning something and calling it worldly just because one does not like it or is unwilling to change is not a mature position.

 

Trust me......ya aint gettin one......But you sound like an old coot to me.

 

It's a matter of semantics. Hymns typically do not have electronic music. Usually just a piano and/or organ and vocals. Most songwriters nowadays don't write songs for only the piano. Thus my term "even new hymns without electric instruments."

Of course not.

 

I just showed you two examples above where hymns were arranged with electronic instruments. We feature tons of hymns in our church -- straight out of the hymnal -- albeit arranged for a different musical feel while preserving the wording and basic melody of the original.

Here are some additional examples:

"Rock of Ages"
http://sojournmusic.bandcamp.com/track/rock-of-ages

"Who Have I in Heaven but You"
http://sojournmusic.bandcamp.com/track/whom-have-i-in-heaven

"Approach My Soul the Mercy Seat"
http://sojournmusic.bandcamp.com/track/approach-my-soul-the-mercy-seat

 

I couldn't get through Brooks Ritter. sounds like a bad rock band. But I got through the third one....that was OK. Seriously would prefer a simple piano accompaniment with the church singing. But thats just me.

 

I agree. I have experienced the spontaneous outpouring as your describe and I am certainly not critical of that. I am concerned about the contrived, half-hearted kind at the request of the song director which is usually just a way to transition from one song to another.

 

Brooks has his own groove -- indie style -- and he is very well recieved out there. His new album was in the top 10 on iTunes in its debut week. Probably not for everyone, but certainly a joy to know as he leads worship for our church almost every Sunday.

 

I think it is how the modern music leader is taught...or what he mirrors from watching others lead.

I agree...cheerleading isn't the point.

 

Personally I don't really like the music part of the service. Traditional or contemporary it is too long and takes up valuable time that could be spent in prayer or preaching.

The problem with the church today isn't the type of music today but the focus ON music today. Song leaders are now called "worship pastors" and such. We worship in many more ways than just song.

 

My observation is that in many churches, the music is considered the worship. It is separate from the sermon or prayer, which are not considered worship. In other words, the worship leads up to the sermon. Or, in some churches, the talk.

 

I disagree with those who hold that view. God is worshiped in prayer and in the expository preaching of his word as well as music.

 

Well folks, I'm home from Wednesday night Bible Study and I wanted to update everybody.

With my pastor's blessing, I shared the posts of Joshua2415 and me with the congregation. (See posts #12, 14, 16) I wish all of you could have been there to see people calling out to God, interceding for Josh and Laura, tears flowing. I wish you could have heard Josh's mom pray for her son and daughter-in-law. I wish you could have heard others pour out their hearts to the Lord. Josh knows every one of them.

We're not going to stop praying for them. But there was a peace tonight, because we believe we were praying according to God's will, and he will answer our prayers. And we believe that it is God's will to lead them to the right church, and that's what we asked for.

How he will do it, we don't know.

How does this relate to the OP? Well, I saw God's church in action tonight. I saw it first in our study of the Word, led by our pastor. Then I saw our body being obedient to the Word by bearing the burdens of others. And in our praying, we worshiped the One who has all power to grant what we ask.

And I was in the the midst of saints whom I want praying for me when I am in need.

I'm telling you. we had church.

 

It just so happened I was at the Bible study Tom talks about in the above post, and what he says is absolutely true. Observing this from a distance, it is obvioius the Lord used Tom to bring this to the church's attention. His Mom did pray, as did several others. The presence of the Lord saturated the room.

Sometimes the Lord uses people and events in unexpected ways. Parents want to naturally protect their children, and do not relate everything that is going on in their lives or the lives of their children to everyone in church or other circles of people. Sometimes parents do err in judgement in this area, but the Lord lets us know in the most amazing ways that some situations need the attention and prayers of others.

 

You have got to be kidding me. I am not worth the tears and prayers of an entire church I don't even attend anymore. If what happened is true, I don't honestly know what to think. I know God works in amazing and mysterious ways, but why? Shouldn't the prayer be used on building churches in Uganda or the safety of missionaries in dangerous countries? Not some young whippersnapper who lost his way because he's too arrogant for his own good. There are people in hospitals that need prayer--their life is on the line. I'm just astounded--beyond belief, beyond words. I suppose someone will tell me I should be grateful and feel loved. No, no. I feel guilty for directing the power of a house of God from things that should be its foremost purpose. What do you do in a situation like this? I suppose, going through what I went through when I was younger (nothing to do with home life) it's hard to know what it's like to be loved and wanted. I just don't know...just don't know.

 

You know this thing we believe about God being concerned about us personally?? Yeah, that is why the church spent an evening in prayer for you. YOU can't know yet what blessing that church will recieve because they obeyed the leading of the Holy Spirit to pray for you. You also can't know why God has in mind for you and your wife, because His church knelt in obedience and asked for His intervention on your behalf. "by your love for one another shall ye be known" This is a great example of God's people showing whose they are.

YOU are God's formost purpose. So am I. So is that church in Uganda and those missionaries who serve on the dark side. Our God's power is never divided, only multiplied.

What your home church (and I used that figuratively) did was what it was supposed to do. You learning that their are people, human people, that love and care about you and your growing in grace toward being able to accept the loving prayers of others, might be the biggest lesson God wants you to learn out of this experience.

Just a thought.

 

Josh, it's not as if we sat down and said to ourselves, "well, we can pray for Josh or we can pray for the lost in Uganda." It's not a matter of choosing one over the other.

Honestly, I don't know what to pray for in every situation. But I know how to pray about this one.

I confess that I'm not moved to pray for every ill in the world. But I believe the Lord placed this burden on me, and on your brothers in sisters in your home church, and it drove us to our knees.

To be sure, our prayers asked for a specific thing for you and your dear bride. But prayer is not just for us to get God to do what we want. Prayer is for us who prayed. It reminds us that we are totally dependent on the Creator of the Universe, and that is what we expressed Wednesday night--our total dependence on him.

I appreciate your humble heart, questioning whether you were worth the time and effort we spent in intercession. I can tell you this: whether you ever receive a blessing from God as the result of those prayers, we have already received a blessing.

By the way, we're not neglecting other prayer needs. I was reminded of a pastor who was picketing in front of a porno house in Paducah 30 years ago. Somebody asked him why he was picketing there when there more important things to be concerned about. His answer: "Well, I don't preach on every sin every Sunday, but i get to all of them sooner or later."

We'll get to the other things sooner or later.

As a former pastor once observed, you need the prayers and we need the practice.

 

Joshua, it is called "love." It is a good thing. It is of God! Wish there was more of it in our churches! And, you, along with the churches we've been talking about certainly need it!