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Celebration of Discipline by Foster

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by tinytim, Oct 26, 2010.

  1. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    That's why I went through 9 pages. I don't look at the first one that comes up but usually go through at least 5-10 pages to see what it says.

    That said, my husband had the book on his bookshelf so I have it here. I'll start looking through it today.
     
  2. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Why is it that when I look at Richard Foster's site "Renovaire", there is not one thing about being saved? It's talking a lot about relationship and how we can be like Jesus but isn't the first part of being like Jesus becoming a child of God? We can't be like Jesus if we're not saved - yet there's not one word of the Gospel there. Why is that?
     
  3. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    I have not looked at his web site, but perhaps he is writing to people already saved.
     
  4. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Even to people "already saved", don't you first make sure we're on the right page? I mean if I was going to talk to people about becoming more Christ-like, I'd ALWAYS address salvation first. We're talking a website on the internet that anyone can access- saved and unsaved alike. Shouldn't there be ONE section of the site that addresses the first step in becoming Christ-like? But other than the Apostle's Creed, there's nothing in there about who Jesus is for us to understand how we're to become like Him. Why is that?
     
  5. Steven2006

    Steven2006 New Member

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    http://apprising.org/2008/09/22/cel...-foster-an-encyclopedia-of-theological-error/

    I don't know anything about this site, but for those interested I found this article that warns against this book. Here is a quote from article.

    Another:

    Another:

     
    #45 Steven2006, Oct 28, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2010
  6. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    Well, let me post part of a paper I wrote on it. That is about all I have time for...

    Communicating for Change

    Stanley describes three different approaches to preaching and teaching, based on the specific goals of the instructor: teach the Bible to people, teach people the Bible, or have a goal of "change." The first approach equates to exegetical, expositional teaching, which "teaches verse by verse through books of the Bible." The second approach is like the first, but "takes the audience into account." The third is essentially topical preaching in which a single point is stressed, and the instructor communicates the message that he wants to impart (Stanley 2006, 93-95).


    Stanley is heavily critical of the first approach. He calls line by line expositional preaching "easy," and says that it "requires no creativity." He further criticizes one such exegetical preacher for preaching on Psalm 44 on Easter, because that is where the text had brought him (Stanley 2006, 94). Rather than "teach the Bible to people," Stanley contends that the goal should be "change" and that this is better accomplished by "picking" passages to buttress the principal the preacher desires to teach. He even goes as far as to say that he "weaves" a message about sexual purity and managing money into nearly every passage he preaches (Stanley 2006, 95-96).


    Stanley's position is wrought with difficulty. For example, his contention that line by line expositional preaching is easy and requires no creativity is completely subjective. The writer of this essay, for one, having both preached through books of the bible, as well as having taught topical series, would vehemently disagree. It is much more difficult to be creative within the preset boundaries given by the text, in order, line-by-line, and chapter by chapter. It is much easier to develop a message that does not have such limitations. Further Stanley's criticism of the preacher who taught on Psalm 44, must be examined on its merits. Why should a preacher's teaching of biblical truth be limited to a holiday, which is not even recognized by the Bible? Are teachers to change the message based on what people expect, or standards imposed by the world?


    This leads to the greatest danger in Stanley's methodology; he states that the message is to be determined by the teacher, rather than the text. This is demanded, in fact, by the topical method, unless one is simply picking verses at random. Robert L. Thomas says of this topical preaching style
    "Much too frequently a preacher conceives of what his congregation's needs are and rushes naively to a text to support his conception. The results are tragic for the exegetical process, and beyond this, the preacher's prime reason for standing before people has suffered abuse" (Thomas 2000, 196).
    Likewise, Richards and Bredfeldt assert that while many teachers use the Bible to teach their own objectives, such as behavioral changes, only what the Bible writers actually intended to teach is authoritative (Richards and Bredfeldt 1998, 63).


    Exegetical, verse-by-verse exposition helps to eliminate the subjective human element. Instead of teaching what the fallible teacher or preacher desires to teach, it forces the instructor to actually teach precisely what the text is teaching. Furthermore, it has the advantage of placing the teaching in its proper context, and building upon previous material in a natural way. That is, letters and books are naturally read from beginning to end, building on the information before. Skipping around throughout the text, can miss vital information, or convey something other than what the text is actually saying. Of course, it also makes a teacher deal with the more difficult material; uncomfortable material like sin, judgment, and hell are covered, whereas they might otherwise be neglected.


    Last, of course, is the fundamental misunderstanding that Stanley has, regarding how a believer grows spiritually. It is not the responsibility of the teacher, to design eloquently written, exhortative verbal trickery. The changing force in the life of the Christian is not the presentation of the preacher, but the Word of God (1 Thess. 2:13). Thus, if Stanley is truly interested in change, he should teach his congregation the Scriptures, just as they are written; that is, line-by-line, chapter-by-chapter, expository preaching.
     
    #46 Havensdad, Oct 28, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2010
  7. Steven2006

    Steven2006 New Member

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    For those that want insight from books other than the bible, are there not enough available that are authored from those with a sound biblical doctrine, that we must recommended those that aren't?

     
  8. Crucified in Christ

    Crucified in Christ New Member

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    Dear brother,
    It is not an either/or...we are called to love the Lord and reject that which is pagan or occult. Was it not the sin of Jezebel trying to integrate the sin of paganism into God's people? Was this not why the woman in Thyatira was called Jezebel because she had tried to convince the Christians there that there was no danger to worshiping Christ while exploring the "deep secrets of Satan"?

    The truth cannot be compromised without being less than the truth. Since Jesus is the Truth; we cannot compromise our worship of Him by dragging it through the pits of occultism. Christianity wrapped in paganism is nothing less than an affront to our Holy God.
     
  9. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus Well-Known Member
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    Foster doesn't involve either paganism or the occult. To suggest otherwise shows that one hasn't read his text and has arrived at a preconceived assumption. The reality is that he has a good text that benefits many in their walk with Christ.

    Just because he doesn't express his thought in terms of baptistic colloquialisms doesn't mean he is summoning demons and conjuring spirits to ruin believers.
     
  10. Fred's Wife

    Fred's Wife Member

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    We aren't concerned with what you term "baptistic colloquialisms", we are more concerned about BIBLICAL TRUTH! Foster does not teach Biblical truth. He preaches and teaches PAGANISM, EASTERN MYSTICISM, and OCCULTISM!

     
  11. Steadfast Fred

    Steadfast Fred Active Member

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    On page 25, Foster states:

    "After you have gained some proficiency in centering down, add a five- to ten-minute meditation on some aspect of the creation. Choose something in the created order: tree, plant, bird, leaf, cloud, and each day ponder it carefully and prayerfully"

    He follows that with this statement:

    "We should not bypass this means of God's grace"

    God's grace is received by meditating on a tree? or a plant, or a bird? or a leaf? or a cloud? by think of these things daily we receive God's grace?

    Of course, the Word of God teaches quite the contrary. God's grace is His gift of eternal life to an undeserving sinner who trusts His Son Jesus Christ.... not by meditating on the things Foster claims.

    Foster needs to read the Bible. He is in serious error.
     
  12. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    I just asked hubby about this and he disagrees with what you said. He said that basically Stanley DOES support verse by verse preaching through a passage but don't make the whole passage your message. Go to one point. Preach that message. Next week go to the next point. Preach that message. I know that's how my pastor does it and he preaches through books. :)

    Hubby said that the goal is to have some sort of "thing" for the congregation to come away with. A word from the text - a directive - something to change or act on in their lives.

    I know hubby is using it to teach another pastor how to preach - someone who can use the book. ;)
     
  13. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    What???? Sounds like Hinduism.


    Also sounds dangerously close to worshiping the creature instead of the Creator.
     
  14. Fred's Wife

    Fred's Wife Member

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    It's Eastern Mysticism, which would include Hinduism.
     
  15. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    Ma'am, that is NOT what Stanley teaches in the book. If you will read the page citations in my quotes, you will see that Stanley specifically mocks verse by verse exegetical preaching, and states pointedly that the preacher should choose his message each week, and then find a verse to fit it. Again, he states this plainly (a fact that my Instructor even agreed with), and I am unsure how your husband could miss it. Not trying to attack him, but it is just as plain as day.

    I would NEVER give that tripe to anyone new to preaching. His MWGYW approach is artificial, and imposes criteria on the text that it does not necessarily have. His focus on change is completely misplaced; we are to preach the Word, God does the changing. And the Word does not always just have one nifty little catch phrase as its focus.

    A much better book on preaching, would be solid books like this one:

    http://www.amazon.com/dp/1418500046/?tag=baptis04-20
     
  16. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    Having read the book, and having taken classes on Hinduism, I can affirm that yes, it has some glaring (and dangerous) similarities.
     
  17. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    I disagree...

    Have you ever looked at a bird, or leaf, or frog, and looked at the complexity in nature...
    Lillies of the field, birds of the air... things Christ used to get people to think on God's provisions...

    I encourage this... go out, in silence, and look at a flower, and ask God to show you something about himself... HE WILL.

    You will end up experiencing God.

    You will end praising God for many different things...
    Don't be too quick to criticize something Just because it looks like something other religions do...

    For instance... Fasting.. .Hindus fast, should we stop because they do?

    All these disciplines have Christian history behind them... the ancient Christians practiced them.. somewhere along the line we quit.. .and we became superficial..
     
  18. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Tim, I look at nature all the time and see God. His creation is awesome, but that is not the same thing as focusing on a leaf or cloud or whatever in meditation.
    We are told in the Bible to meditate on God's word. I have never read where we are to meditate on anything else.

    What has been posted so far from this book is without a doubt unbiblical.

    I would like to know what ancient Christians practiced these things. I have never heard of that.
     
  19. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    But Tim - God's not going to show me something about himself as I focus on nature - but He will show me something about himself as I focus on Him. It seems in this book that the author is telling us to focus on things to meditate on them and then we'll get some magical information or grace from God - but I don't see that as Scriptural.
     
  20. Steadfast Fred

    Steadfast Fred Active Member

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    Exactly! The book tells us to meditate on birds, trees, leafs, etc..

    God's Word tells us to meditate on Him, not those other things.

    Yes, He does tell us to consider the lilies and sparrows. But that does not mean meditate on them. And He certainly does not tell us to meditate on them in order to receive grace from God.
     
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