Cessation of gifts

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Plain Old Bill, Apr 15, 2007.

  1. Plain Old Bill

    Plain Old Bill
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2003
    Messages:
    3,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Can someone please show me with scripture where there is a cessation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
     
  2. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe it is at the rapture, Bill. In the same manner He was sent by Christ as the Comforter ("He took captivity captive and gave gifts to men"), He will leave with those to whom He was sent -- namely, the church.

    Can we find that in scripture? To me, 2Thes 2:6-8. Something I just thought of in this regard is that 1Cor 12 tells us that He has "given apostles, teachers,..." to the church, right? Do you realize that the AC is coming from inside the church?? If those Spirit indwelt leaders were to vanish, imagine what such an apostate church leader could "teach" to a blind generation!! Well, you needn't imagine. Just read Rev 2:22!

    Also Mt 24:14 -- the OT "gospel of the kingdom" will be preached in the tribulation, not the "gospel of grace" accompanied by the Holy Spirit indwelling.

    skypair
     
  3. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,807
    Likes Received:
    0
    You're not asking about the sign-gifts, are you?
     
  4. Plain Old Bill

    Plain Old Bill
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2003
    Messages:
    3,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    :godisgood: Yes. I'm asking about all of the gifts.I see no scriptural support for cessation of gifts and am wondering out loud if there is any.
     
  5. Jkdbuck76

    Jkdbuck76
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,262
    Likes Received:
    64
    When the Apostles died, they took their gifts with them.

    I mean, Paul even said that tongues shall cease.

    If you or I picked up a deadly snake and got bitten, we'd
    likely die. Just depends on our physiology and whether
    or not mr. snake decided to hit us with a lethal dose or not.

    I cannot raise the dead. No preacher I've seen has raised
    the dead like Paul has.

    Paul told Timothy to take some wine for his stomach. Why
    not just heal him?

    I've never seen someone instantaneously be able to speak a
    KNOWN language they've never known before like at Pentecost
    or at the house of Cornelius.
     
  6. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,807
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, not all the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased (pastor-teacher, etc.), but the sign gifts were given for a limited time for a specific reason, and that time and reason has expired. If you notice, after Acts 28:28, when the offer of the Kingdom was no longer offered to the Jews only, but also offered to the Gentiles, there are no more manifestations of these signs, wonders, and miracles in the Bible.

    These things ended when "that which was perfect (mature) has come".

    I think that which is perfect is the completion of the offer of the Kingdom to the Jews only.

    So, some time between 59 and 62 AD, Paul lost the ability to heal, etc.

    Some think that it was when the canon of Scriptures was finished.

    But, as one person pointed out, it was the apostles only who were given the ability to perform the signs, wonders, and miracles, as a sign to give verification to the message they were carrying. Today, we have the verification in the Bibles we carry.
     
  7. RichardJS

    RichardJS
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2007
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    0
    Try to get hold of MacArthur's Charismatic Chaos and his Commentary on 1 Corinthians! Also: http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1871.htm
     
  8. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2003
    Messages:
    15,125
    Likes Received:
    0
    There really is no Scriptural support for cessation. People will make cases as you see above.

    Most people will use 1 Cor 13 as a text to support cessation, yet there really is no way you can get cessation from that text without jumping through some major hoops.

    Cessation of gifts may be true, however, there is very little evidence in Scripture to support it. I believe that the majority of folks who hold to cessation of gifts due so out of a reaction (and rightfully so) to the abuses that take place in the name of gifts and the Lord today.

    I am cautiously open to all gifts being in use today, but I would stress the cautiously.
     
  9. swaimj

    swaimj
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/swaimj.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is not a single passage or verse that clearly teaches that sign gifts have ceased. Hebrews 1 most clearly infers their cessation, IMHO, but, of course those who see it differently would discount those inferences.

    BUT, there is much orthodox theology that is based upon inferences and theological conclusions, not clear single verse statements or single passage teachings. In the case of cessationism, I think that strong theological arguments are available to show cessationism.

    Perhaps the strongest argument for cessation is to think about some of the sign gifts. Consider Jesus' greatest signs. He stilled the storm. He walked on water. When Jesus passed through the crowds people struggled to have his shadow fall upon them so that they might be healed. BTW, this happened with Peter as well in the book of Acts. No one is performing miracles like this today. I conclude that these signs have ceased.
     
  10. mcdirector

    mcdirector
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,292
    Likes Received:
    10
    I've got to agree with Pastor here.
     
  11. mcdirector

    mcdirector
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,292
    Likes Received:
    10
    I also wanted to say, that I've listened to and read some of John MacArthur's work on tongues. (He was referenced below.) In what I read, he was dealing primarily with the charasmatic movement which can be separated from the gifts IMHO.
     
  12. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2003
    Messages:
    15,125
    Likes Received:
    0
    So it is ok to have a theological conclusion without any Scripture to truly support it?
     
  13. swaimj

    swaimj
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/swaimj.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    First, let me clarify what I am saying. When I say there is not a single verse, I am not saying that there is no verse at all, I am saying that there is not one, stand-alone verse or one stand-alone statement which directly declares that sign-gifts have ceased for today.

    If there were a single verse or passage for every truth that we hold in theology, then theological conclusions would not be necessary. Theological conclusions are necessary when issues arise for which there is no direct statement(s) in scripture on the subject. In those cases, we go to verses or passages that speak indirectly to the subject or which have an inference that is relevant to the subject and we draw conclusions.

    A few instances: Can you give me a single verse that says that Jesus is God? Can you give me a single verse that says that abortion is sin? Can you give me a single verse which declares that God is a trinity? I don't think you can. So, on those topics we go to passages and draw inferences and come to a conclusion about the matter.

    Much of orthodox theology is derived by this method. The reason that theological controversies arise is often because there is no clear, single statement declaring a matter, so logic must be employed. And when humans have to reason their way through to a conclusion disagreements usually result.

    Can a reasonable theological argument be advanced that sign-gifts have ceased? I think so. Do I have a single, slam-dunk verse to prove it? Nope! But if that is the demand, you will have to let go of much of your theology.
     
  14. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2003
    Messages:
    15,125
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for clarifying what you meant.

    I am not sure I follow you completely here. So there is only a theological conclusion drawn when there is no verse stating it? If that's true then our theology books and teachings on such things as atonement, santification, redemption, etc need to be thrown away because there are many clear verses on such things.

    John 1:1

    Ex. 20:13; Psalm 139

    This is a tougher one, but you are comparing apples and oranges also. There is way more in Scripture that shows the conclusion of the Trinity compared to cessation of sign gifts. Would you not agree?

    It is also a seedbed for heresy and false teachers. Looking at theological conclusions through human logic can also be very dangerous. Human logic lays preconcieved ideas on top of a text that are not there. Human logic takes a verse or two and can use it to support all kinds of false assumptions.

    I would love to hear your Scriptural argument for this conclusion. Your argument above glossed over Scripture and jumped to other proofs. I would sincerely like see you put together a Scriptural basis for your understanding.

    I have no problem with you or anyone holding to this view. I think we should just be honest enough with the text to say this is our belief and conviction, it just isn't founded in Scripture.
     
    #14 PastorSBC1303, Apr 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2007
  15. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,807
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'll go you one further and point out that there are a lot of verses that we assume that God is God (as in God the Father) that is not. "God" is a title, not a name.

    Also, can you point to a single verse that the unsaved will go into the lake of fire forever? (There is one, but even it is open to speculation.)

    If every doctrine were spelled out specifically in one verse, there would be very few denominations. (There would still be some that didn't like it, so...)

    Instead, we have debate and discussion because we have to build precept upon precept and line upon line, here a little there a little.

    We don't all see the same building blocks.
     
  16. swaimj

    swaimj
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/swaimj.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    But even on topics which are clearly addressed, they are not addressed in only one verse or even one passage. Sometimes there are even statements that are seemingly contradictory which must be reconciled (Is justification by faith only as Paul states or is it by faith and works and James states). So creating a biblical or systematic theology means we take all of the statements and organize them and synthesize them into one coherent doctrine.

    Before I answer, I have to note that you really seem to be agreeing with me here: i.e. the doctrine of the Trinity is not clearly stated in scripture but is inferred and arrived at by logic.

    I have not really compared the Trinity and cessationism in terms of the preponderance of evidence, so I don't know the answer to this question. Certainly, the doctrine of the Trinity is a cornerstone of orthdoxy. Cessationism is not. However, Trinitarianism became a cornerstone in response to heresy that arose in the church and it was formulated in response. If the method used to formulate the doctrine of the Trinity (inferences of scripture and logic) are utilized in regard to cessationism, then their conclusion is as authoritative because its foundation is the same.

    There is no doubt that many people have misinterpreted the Bible and have used logic to come to their conclusions. I don't think this calls for a blanket condemnation of the use of logic though. There are many orthodox doctrines that depend upon logic for their formulation such as the hypostatic union, inspiration, inerrancy, the Trinity.

    Are you asking me to admit that I'm wrong before I even post my argument? :laugh:
     
  17. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2003
    Messages:
    15,125
    Likes Received:
    0
    :laugh: I guess it did seem like that in a way. But I would just like to see a pure Scriptural presentation of this position. I have asked many folks for one and basically it always comes down to 1 Cor 13 and a bunch of jumping through hoops. If you truly see other texts that speak to this issue, then I would really like to see them and study them.

    BTW, I appreciate how you discuss issues around the board. (Must be something about our birthday:saint: :laugh: )
     
  18. swaimj

    swaimj
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/swaimj.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    WHAT!!! WHAT!!! I just spent 25 minutes typing a response onto the reply window. When I tried to post it the link crashed and my work was lost. Unbelievable!!! :BangHead:

    I'll try to reproduce it at a later time. Ta Ta for now! :sleeping_2:
     
  19. Jack Matthews

    Jack Matthews
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2006
    Messages:
    833
    Likes Received:
    1
    There aren't any. There is no scripture that teaches the sign gifts went out with the apostles.
     
  20. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,807
    Likes Received:
    0
    That would be why there's no debate on the issue, right?
     

Share This Page

Loading...