Charismatic future?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Bugman, Aug 22, 2002.

  1. Bugman

    Bugman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2002
    Messages:
    329
    Likes Received:
    0
    From what I understand the Charismatic movement is where a lot of new Christains are comming in to. Is the Charismatic movement where the majority of Christanity is heading? And if that is the case, then should something be done to try to stop it?

    Bugman
     
  2. rsr

    rsr
    Expand Collapse
    <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    10,073
    Likes Received:
    101
    Many observers think so.

    "The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity," by Philip Jenkins, predicts that there will be 1 billion pentecostals in the world by 2050, far outstripping the "mainline" Protestant denominations.

    A link to a review of his book:

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/2002/002/16.32.html
     
  3. Bugman

    Bugman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2002
    Messages:
    329
    Likes Received:
    0
    I could see that.
    For a person who understands that they need Christ (but hasn't learned anything beyond Salvation truths, or even a person looking at Christainty) A Pentacostal church would be very inviting (A liberal Pentacostal Church even more). All that emotion and energy would look great, and feel great. Even I think it would be great sometimes....But I know that it's nothing more then emotion.

    Bugman
     
  4. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,646
    Likes Received:
    223
    In ten years you'll scarcely be able to tell the difference between the SBC and the Charismatics.
     
  5. Jonathan

    Jonathan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    536
    Likes Received:
    0
    In one regard, I hope that you're correct: a passion to worship God.

    In most of the Baptist churches that I have encountered, actual worship is something that we sandwich between anouncements and preaching.

    Baptists, at least we conservative types, have done some excellent work in seeing that our doctrines are biblically straight. But we lag terribly in bring a worshipful approach to our corporate gatherings.

    When the topic of worship comes up among conservative Baptists, it usually degenerates quickly into an argument over styles or which pre-1950 hymn is the makes us the most nostalgic...um..I mean meaningful.

    Do a simple search on worship in Scripture and you will find that it is the believer's chief responsibility. Do a simple survey of conservative Baptist churches and you'll likely find that we are neglecting this chief responsibility.

    Should we do something about it? Nah...slamming those goofy charismatics is much more fun.
     
  6. Mike McK

    Mike McK
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2001
    Messages:
    6,630
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not to split hairs but, technically, "Pentecostal" and "Charismatic" aren't necessarily the same thing. I get your point though and I agree.

    What is much more frightening to me than the growing Charismatic movement is the explosion of the Word Faith cult.

    I really believe Word Faith is the false teaching the Bible talks about coming in the end because the ultimate goal of WoF is to make gods out of men.

    Most WoF teachers already teach that man is divine.

    Benny Hinn goes so far as to say that he's a "little messiah walking the Earth...in fact, you can call me Benny Jehovah".

    There are many charismatics who hold to the essentials of the faith but the WoF movement actually encourages it's followers not to condemn any teaching, no matter how awful, and to trust subjective feelings and opinions over scripture.

    The message you get over and over is, "if it feels like God, then it is".

    Mike
     
  7. Bugman

    Bugman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2002
    Messages:
    329
    Likes Received:
    0
    Does anyone know of a website where I can see the yearly growth stastics for various religions and denominations so I can do some comparision?

    Thanks,
    Bugamn
     
  8. qwerty

    qwerty
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    417
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jesus, in talking with Nicodemus said:
    JN 3:[8] The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

    There will always be a great deal of mystery in what God does. From our vantage point, He tends to be unpredictable (expect for the Calvinists ;) )

    Peter saw a beginning of what God was doing, when he accurately interpreted what happened on the day of Pentecost. But it was only a beginning, and not the ending.

    JOEL 2:28 "And afterward,
    I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
    Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
    your old men will dream dreams,
    your young men will see visions.

    JOEL 2:29 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

    We have much to look forward to in the next few years. There is something to fear in every denomination, because there are people in each group.
    And, if God is truly moving in a group, we can hope that God will be given the glory.
    But, as Jesus said, the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest. He said you can't tell the difference until they are mature. Now that sounds scary!

    But, in the end, we know that Jesus will get His way, and all of us will get a special opportunity:

    PHP 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

    PHP 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.
     
  9. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    In most of the Baptist churches that I have encountered, actual worship is something that we sandwich between anouncements and preaching

    I agree 100%. Baptist have had no clue what worship is. Emotion was something to be stifled, not expressed. If Baptist don't get a clue, they will lose members in droves.
     
  10. donnA

    donnA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    23,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    Worship is much mre then singing, or being emotional, it's a way of life, everything we do it be for God, and offering to Him, our lives. That makes our lifes when dedicated to Him worship of Him. I live the way I do because of Him. Worshipping in church is just a par tof worship.
     
  11. donnA

    donnA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    23,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    And listening to His word being preached/taught is worship. Everything you do in church is to be in worship of Him.
     
  12. Naomi

    Naomi
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2002
    Messages:
    370
    Likes Received:
    0
    Very well stated Katie [​IMG]
    God Bless
    Naomi
     
  13. blackbird

    blackbird
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    11,898
    Likes Received:
    2
    Katie hit the nail right on the head. Coming to church and singing a few sissy-fied choruses over and over and over again ain't what I call worship! Worship is a state of mind and soul. It involves 7 days a week--not just Sunday from 9:45am until noon. I doubt if Mary was thinking about Benny Hinn or Ken Copeland or Papa Hagan when she was pouring that ointment out of that Alabaster Box onto Jesus' feet!

    Worship is everything you are responding to everything that Jesus is!! Its not just a praise chorus--its YOU!! Its YOU responding to HIM!!

    Will the SBC go the way of the Charasmatics??!! Oh, there will be a few who make the change. A handful from each church will get Copeland's "Q-Tip" and woller it around in their ears to satisfy that itch going on in that canal! But for the most part--the Charismatic's Evangelism is held to--"You gotta get out of that dead denomination! Rebuke it! And then start speaking the word of faith!"

    Aaron says in 10 years the SBC will be Charasmatic!! Why, Aaron--that's a Negative Confession!!! If you catch my dreft!!
     
  14. Jonathan

    Jonathan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    536
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ouch! Looks like there were toes in those shoes. [​IMG] Of course "worship" is not completely defined by what we do on Sunday morning. My point is that there is rarely the spirit of authentic worship in Baptist (SBC or otherwise) church on Sunday morning.

    And let me make sure that I'm understood when I say "worship". If you have ever hiked miles in the wilderness, or cut and hanged tobacco all day, or worked hard in the hot searing sun and found yourself parched, you know how good that cool drink of water is to your entire system. It is such an all encompassing experience that you respond with an "ahhhhhh". When you do, you are glorifying the water.

    I rarely see such a reaction (and no, I'm not talking about tongues, sign gifts, etc...) in Baptist churches regarding the coming together as the body of Christ in the presence of a Holy God. No, we usually come together and are comforted by our expected routine. Most Baptist pastors would face a split or an emergency deacons meeting if the Sunday morning routine is tampered with.

    Oh, but I agree. We are commanded to delight in the Lord...without regard to day of the week or time of the day. So, why do we not have vibrant worship on Sunday morning? My theory is that we are simply not worshipping the Lord (like Mary was doing) during the other six days and that since we are not in the habit of life changing worship during the week, we simply aren't prepared to do so corporately on Sunday.

    BTW, this is the same admonition we use to one another regarding God's Word: if you do not spend time in it daily, what happens on Sunday will likely not be sufficient.

    Is this in response to anything that I've written? I note that when this topic comes up among conservative Baptists, the usual sidetracks (Copeland, Hagan, worship is not just for Sunday, etc...) pop up as a way of avoiding the issue.

    If worship if YOU responding to HIM, why does it appear so programmed and dusty on Sunday morning in most Baptist churches?

    I think that any church that is not a solidly bible teaching church is in danger of falling into the Charismatic falicies. In my experience, there are a number of Baptist churches (SBC or otherwise) that are moving in this direction.

    However, God is not glorified by dead, cold, routine based worship. The shallow Charismatics will suffer a fate no worse than the dead, sitting on our hands, Baptists.

     
  15. atestring

    atestring
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2001
    Messages:
    1,675
    Likes Received:
    0
    AMEN Katie
    You are exactly right!
    Music is only a part of the worship service.
    I Corinthians 14 :26 says:
    When you come together let each one of you have a Psalm, a doctrine, a tongue, a revelation, an interpretation and let it be done decently and in order.
    All thees things, (not just music) are for the purpose of worship and glorifying God.

    Even the announcements given in the right spirit should be part of our worship to God.
     
  16. Abiyah

    Abiyah
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/abiyah.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,194
    Likes Received:
    0
    Our God is not glorified in dead, routine
    worship, but neither is He glorified in fake,
    worked up religion. One can to go a dance,
    a horse race, or a fight and get all worked up
    and excited in the same way as some do in
    some churches, but the excitement and the
    cheering will not bring them any closer to
    our God.

    I have been around these places, and it is
    nothing to play with. I am sure our God turns
    His holy head in sorrow and shame at many of
    the things done in supposed "Houses of God."
    It rips His heart apart to see people exchang-
    ing true worship for excitement, true worship
    for whatever THEY can get out of it. It is merely
    a continuation of the old '60s themes, "If it feels
    good, do it," and "If it feels so right, it can't be
    wrong."

    Our God is a God of specifics. He cannot be
    truly worshiped by screaming and jabbering
    nonsense or by any other unbiblical means.
    He is indeed worshiped by all those things and
    actions He sanctions and that we do in His holy
    Name, even in the supposedly "mundane."
    However, when it comes to the place of
    worship, He, I am sure, turns away from all who
    work up the excitement, who fake, who are
    there to be seen.

    One of my pastor has said in the past some-
    thing like this: Sometimes He comes to the
    door of our houses of worship and knocks, but
    no one opens the door. He just leaves flowers
    and goes away.

    [ August 23, 2002, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
     
  17. Chet

    Chet
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2001
    Messages:
    496
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well said Abiyah.

    Note: We should never look to the Pentecost's or any Charismatics to learn how to worship God.

    John 4:23-24
    Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

    NIV
     
  18. Kiffin

    Kiffin
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2001
    Messages:
    2,191
    Likes Received:
    0
    One disturbing trend I notice in Baptist churches today (At least those I am acquainted with) is the lack of AMEN's! while a preacher in preaching and even at Baptisms. When I was a kid, hearty AMEN's was a common part of worship but now it is the exception not the rule...and don't dare say HALLELUJAH or PRAISE THE LORD! in worship anymore. There is a such thing as over emotionalism but on the other hand a lack of emotion in worship may show a lack of conviction, zeal for the Lord.
     
  19. Naomi

    Naomi
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2002
    Messages:
    370
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen! ;)
    Naomi

    I had to do it!!!

    *Disclaimer: No disrespect intended...I just had to do it!
     
  20. Jonathan

    Jonathan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    536
    Likes Received:
    0
    I couldn't agree more. We must look to God, and see His presence, in order to learn how to worship God. But we Baptists have the tendency to look at hymn book, a comforting Sunday morning schedule, and a familiar music style...and then we get around to actually worshipping God, if at all.

    Just calling what we normally do on Sunday mornings "worship" may not be enough.

    This may be THE quote that is most convicting to millions of conservative Baptists. We work ever so hard to nail down the "truth" part. We should be just as passionate about the "spirit" part.
     

Share This Page

Loading...