Charismatic-leaning Southern Baptists being betrayed, excluded, says pastor

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by gb93433, Feb 9, 2006.

  1. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    http://www.abpnews.com/www/824.article

    Charismatic-leaning Southern Baptists being betrayed, excluded, says pastor

    By John Pierce

    Published: February 9, 2006

    CHATTANOOGA, Tenn. (ABP) -- When Paul Pressler and Paige Patterson launched a revolution within the Southern Baptist Convention, they found an eager soldier in Ron Phillips.

    Phillips, 58, has been pastor of Central Baptist Church of Hixson, near Chattanooga, Tenn., since 1979 -- the year the so-called "conservative resurgence” began within the SBC.

    In the early 1990s, he served as chair of the Home Mission Board, since renamed the North American Mission Board. But in 1989 he had “an experience with the Holy Spirit” that changed his life and ministry significantly.

    Though once an insider in the conservative movement, Phillips now sees himself as excluded from SBC life.

    “I do believe Paige [Patterson] and others have betrayed every one of us,” said Phillips, whose church is now known as Abba’s House and draws about 3,000 worshippers each Sunday.

    The congregation identifies itself as “a Spirit-filled Southern Baptist church” that “operates in the gifts of the Spirit while holding to the Word of God.” Phillips said his congregation affirms biblical authority -- what he thought was the sole issue in the SBC controversy.

    “We thought it was a commitment to a higher view of scripture, rather than a narrowing view of fundamentalism,” said Phillips, who helped carry out the radical reshaping of the convention as HMB chair.

    The suggestion that he is now on the receiving end of what he helped create is certainly “fair,” Phillips confessed. He said he has apologized to many who were excluded from SBC life in past years. “I was much younger,” he said. “But I was very serious and sincere.”

    Phillips was elected president of the Tennessee Baptist Convention in 1991, even after his “experience with the Holy Spirit.” There were no problems, he said, because “I didn’t get up and talk about it.”

    In his book, Awakened by the Spirit, Phillips shares his emerging theological and historical perspectives as a “Spirit-filled” Baptist. He said his passion for evangelism and missions remains high, but he is finding it harder to support the work of Southern Baptists.

    He said convention policies -- including the one recently adopted by the International Mission Board that excludes missionary candidates who use a "private prayer language" -- are pushing more good Baptists away.

    “We’re shocked and betrayed by what has happened at the International Mission Board,” said Phillips. “I feel like it is a precursor to a total booting out of Baptists with charismatic leanings.”

    In response, Paige Patterson said neither he nor anyone else to his knowledge ever made a promise to include charismatic persons in all aspects of SBC life. And his position on gifts of the Spirit, he said, has been known publicly for years and is documented in a commentary he wrote on 1 Corinthians.

    “The Bible says not to forbid speaking in tongues, since the miracle of Acts 2, for example, was a miracle of God,” said Patterson. “However, Paul builds in so many restrictions in 1 Corinthians 14 as to make the practice of mere utterance, what is practiced mostly today, virtually of little value.”

    Patterson said, as a Baptist, he would not forbid anyone from speaking in tongues, but would not call such a person to be his pastor or appoint someone with such leanings as a seminary professor.

    “I cannot imagine why anyone could feel betrayed,” said Patterson, now president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas. “Most of us don’t make deals; we try to understand Scripture and faithfully preach it.”

    Phillips, however, reads such a promise from page 158 of Paul Pressler’s book, A Hill On Which To Die, released in 1999.

    In his personal recounting of the rightward shift in the SBC, Pressler writes: “The liberals had said that after the conservatives finished with those who held different views of the nature of the Bible, they would begin attacking the charismatics (neo-Pentecostals). … They said conservatives wanted to make everybody think just as they do. Such a charge is ludicrous, but it did worry some people such as my friend Wally Henley [pastor of Encourager Church in Houston], who had charismatic leanings. … I assured him that Paige, our friends, and I would not turn on charismatics after the battle over biblical authority was won. He trusted us, and he and others have now seen that this issue will not be a test of fellowship."

    That assurance, however, is not being kept by SBC leaders, said Phillips. And the growing restrictions within SBC agencies make it harder for him and others to stay connected.

    “I think this is an effort to exclude ‘Word and Spirit’ people” from the SBC, he said.

    Like others, such as Oklahoma pastor Wade Burleson, whose removal as an IMB trustee is being sought by the agency’s board, Phillips sees the new restrictions on overseas missionaries as an assault on IMB President Jerry Rankin, who admitted to having a private prayer language.

    Phillips said if the trustees think such practices are biblically wrong, they should make the new restrictions retroactive to current missionaries and staff -- rather than applicable to future candidates only. Otherwise, he said, it is a moot point.

    Phillips called the latest restrictions on missionaries “horrible.” Private prayer practices "should be nobody’s business,” he said.

    Phillips said he doesn’t know Rankin personally but has heard wonderful reports about his leadership from missionaries he has encountered around the world. He predicted the new restrictions on missionaries will hurt Southern Baptist efforts to become more ethnically diverse also. “Many African-American congregations that are Southern Baptist operate with the leadership of the Holy Spirit,” said Phillips. “That’s got to be an issue.”

    Phillips also claimed that members of his congregation are no longer able to serve as missionaries -- even as volunteers -- of NAMB, the SBC agency he once led.

    Marty King, NAMB spokesman, said the agency does not screen volunteers for charismatic leanings. The board does have a policy, King said, that prohibits appointed missionaries and endorsed chaplains from practicing glossalalia (speaking in tongues), including a private prayer language.

    So does Phillips still consider himself a Southern Baptist?

    “I do,” he said. “I think I’m the real deal.”

    Phillips said he is not mad at those he helped to gain power in the SBC, just concerned that they have “embraced what I call McCarthyism.” Their philosophy, he said, seems to be “us four and no more.”

    Phillips said he and his congregation are relating to a wider group of Christians than before. Independent Baptists, and even so-called moderate Baptists within and outside the SBC, are more open to him than current Southern Baptist leaders, he said.

    “I have spoken in some moderate churches and have had some great revivals,” said Phillips. “I think there is a greater hunger in moderate churches for the Holy Spirit.”

    Just admitting that, said Phillips, would probably cause some Southern Baptist leaders to call him a liberal.

    Phillips said he and his congregation are partnering for missions and evangelism wherever they find acceptance and support.

    “We want to go where we are celebrated, not just tolerated,” said Phillips.
     
  2. shannonL

    shannonL
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    686
    Likes Received:
    0
    All I can say to Ron Phillips is don't forget to shut the door on the way out.

    I just love it how guys like Phillips who are as different as daylight and dark when it comes to his views and Burleson's views all of a sudden they see things eye to eye. Bureleson has calvinist leanings while Phillips is a full blown pentecostal.
    I've seen Phillips do his hubie jubie tongues on TV more than once and everytime he supposedly speaks in tongues nobody is there to interpret.
    According to Phillips if you don't speak in tongues I guess your not "led by the Spirit"?

    I hope when he held his "revivals" in these "moderate" churches I wonder if any of them got revived enough to repent of their Neo-orthodox view of the Bible? He is full of bologna. There can't be revivals in churches where the "entire Word of God" is looked upon as the exclusive authority. Those moderate churches are in decline and are spiritually dry because they hold to a low view of Scripture. I know I 've been in plenty of them in NC. The most nauseating place you can be is in a baptist church where they don't know for sure if the Bible is inerrant or not?
    The fact of the matter is this:
    Ron Phillips is leaving the SBC the SBC hasnt' went anywhere. Maybe he can team up with Benny Hinn.
    Honestly, I have watched this guy many,many times. He makes me laugh. I know anyday now he is going to be on TBN leading a praise-a-thon.
    Here is a revealing statement:

    "Phillips said he and his congregation are partnering for missions and evangelism wherever they find acceptance and support."

    He is looking for attention plain and simple.
    I don't know what James Robison went through as a SBC man when he had his experience. I don't see him blasting away at his old denom. He is just doing what he thinks God wants him to do.
    Mr. Phillips should do the same. I think by watching his preaching etc... I think he wants us all to know there is a Ron Phillips.

    Here is a laugh at one time on Sunday mornings I used to listen to a couple of my favorite preachers. Dr. Stanley and Dr. Rogers while getting ready for church. The particular station had Phillips on between Rogers and Stanley.
    Honestly that was like comedy relief during intermission.
     
  3. shannonL

    shannonL
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    686
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Is not looked upon as final authority" I left out the word "not" in my above post.

    Big boo boo. Sorry.
     
  4. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0

    THough my experience with charimatic SB's is limited. I can tell you one thing with asuredness. The charismatics in the SBC have for years thought they were the only southern baptists, so it's no surprise that they're getting upset that we noncharismatics are also SBC.
     
  5. Ben W

    Ben W
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2002
    Messages:
    8,868
    Likes Received:
    0
    Consider the words of Gamaliel in Acts 5:34-39,

    He then spoke with great deliberation and calmness, saying: "Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: but if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."
     
  6. Stpaul

    Stpaul
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2006
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Since Phillips has no understanding of the counterfeit gift of tongues nor grasp of the commands Paul gives for it's proper use he is to be relegated to the rhelm of the ignorant. Since he has used the unknown tongue without interpretation he forfeits the right to practice it publicly but allowed to use it privately. He does not speak it in the form Paul perscribes in 1 Cor.14:27(by 2 or at most 3) which is a referance to the different types or kinds of counterfeit versions of so called tongues being propagated by an unusually crafty sorcerror within Corinth. This sorcerror was exposed and destroyed through the craftier apostle Paul but his work and influence goes on through guy like Phillips and the rest of the so called tongues movement.
     
  7. imported_J.R. Graves

    imported_J.R. Graves
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2000
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    0
    Are there really that many charismatic Southern Baptists? Outside of Ron Phillips, who are some others you all know of? I can't imagine any more than 3%-5% of Southern Baptist pastors or churches being charismatic. Do you all agree.
     
  8. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    No. I'm guessing that it accounts for maybe 5% of SBC baptists being charismatic. That's in line with your guesstimation, I noticed.
     
  9. PastorMark

    PastorMark
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2006
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't know how many there are in the SBC that call themselves charismatic, but a few years ago I was on vacation and stopped at a small Baptist Church in Kentucky. At the time I didn't know it was SBC, but I found out later. They didn't call or consider themselves to be charismatic (I talked to the Pastor and some members after service about that), but the Sunday School lesson that morning was on how to properly interpret when someone was speaking in tongues. I probably should have walked out, but I stayed to see where they were going with the idea. By the end I realized that they felt speaking in tongues was a common practice. Let's just say I'll never stop there again.

    PastorMark.
     
  10. mcdirector

    mcdirector
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,292
    Likes Received:
    10
    I have found this rather perplexing. I always thought that the terms charasmatic and SBC were contrary to each other and yet, we find that the charasmatic element of the SBC feels betrayed. I'm surprised that they ever felt accepted taking such an opposing theological stance.
     
  11. Ben W

    Ben W
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2002
    Messages:
    8,868
    Likes Received:
    0
    Charasmatic Baptists often use the term "Bapticostal", as has been pointed out there are a number of Bapticostal SBC churches, yet there are also two other Baptist denominations that are openly charasmatic, being the Pentecostal Freewill Baptist and the Full Gospel Baptist

    http://www.pfwb.org/

    http://www.fullgospelbaptist.org/
     
  12. imported_J.R. Graves

    imported_J.R. Graves
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2000
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    0
    PastorMark,

    Just curious, but where was this charismatic Southern Baptist church located in Kentucky? Was it in western, northern, central, or eastern Kentucky.

    I actually thought of one single Southern Baptist Church I know of that went charismatic for a short time. During that time, most of the members left and the church dropped out of their local association. Fortunately after the charismatic pastor left for another church, some of the former members came back, called a conservative Baptist pastor and now the church is a very sound Baptist church.
     
  13. rsr

    rsr
    Expand Collapse
    <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    10,072
    Likes Received:
    101
    http://www.charismanow.com/a.php?ArticleID=7675

    Local associations within the SBC have dealt with this on and off. I do not think it is widespread, but with various shades of charisma, it is hard to know for sure exactly what qualifies. My sense is, however, it is a tiny minority that qualifies under any traditional understanding of "charismatic."

    After all, some churches that sing choruses are considered "charismatic" by some other Baptists ...
     
  14. mcdirector

    mcdirector
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,292
    Likes Received:
    10
    This is true. My mother is this way. (She doesn't understand why anyone would take notes during a sermon either though.) :D

    My personal definition for charasmatic involves tongues, healing services, being slain in the Spirit . . .
     
  15. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    The question is, should we not allow missionaries who hold these views to serve?

    Burleson is not in anyway "pentecostal" in is teaching or personal views. His objection is the new restriction placed on missionaries. Should the SBC kick out all missionaries who have a "private prayer language"? If so then the head of the IMB would never be allowed to be a missionary.
     
  16. mcdirector

    mcdirector
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,292
    Likes Received:
    10
    Grasshopper -- that isn't a question addressed in this thread. This thread is on charasmatic SBC churches and not private prayer language or Burleson's views.
     
  17. PastorMark

    PastorMark
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2006
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    The church in Kentucky was central, near Danville.

    Mark.
     
  18. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    This all stems from the recent events of the IMB. It is all about how restrictive the SBC is going to be. Is the SBC going to cooperate with other Baptist who differ on certain issues. The article was not about charasmatic churches as much it was about how "cooperative" the SBC is going to be. It is a question that is going to have to be dealt with sooner or later.
     
  19. atestring

    atestring
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2001
    Messages:
    1,675
    Likes Received:
    0
    No. I'm guessing that it accounts for maybe 5% of SBC baptists being charismatic. That's in line with your guesstimation, I noticed. </font>[/QUOTE]I have read articles that claim 20% and growing&gt;
    Missionaries within the SBC are estimated at about 50 %.

    You cannot stop a mighty rushing wind.
    You can mock and say they are full of new wine.
    But this is that which the Prophet Joel spoke about that would happen in the last days.
    Read the book of Joel and 5 times in strategic places the term "new wine " is used.
    When Peter heard the term "new wine" The Holy spirit brought things to his remembrance as Jesus said the Holy Spirit would do.
     
  20. insuranceman

    insuranceman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    0
    If they want to speak in tongues, they should join a charismatic church and quit bringing division to Baptist churches.
     

Share This Page

Loading...