Charismatic Theology

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by myreflection26, Sep 25, 2001.

  1. myreflection26

    myreflection26
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    1 Cor. 12:7-11 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
    To one there is given through the spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by the means of the same spirit,
    to another faith by the same spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one spirit,
    to anotehr miracluous powers, to antoher prophecy,
    to another distinguishing between spirits,
    to anothere speaking in different kinds of tounges,
    and to still another the interpretation of tounges.
    All these are the work of one and the same spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

    The gifts are NOT passed away, they are still very much in action, problem is many chose to not accept them.

    Sue

    [ September 25, 2001: Message edited by: Joseph Botwinick ]
     
  2. Kathryn S.

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1 Cor. 12:7-11 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
    To one there is given through the spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by the means of the same spirit,
    to another faith by the same spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one spirit,
    to anotehr miracluous powers, to antoher prophecy,
    to another distinguishing between spirits,
    to anothere speaking in different kinds of tounges,
    and to still another the interpretation of tounges.
    All these are the work of one and the same spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Thanks, My Reflection:
    One of my favorite prayers is :

    Come Holy Spirit fill my heart. Inkindle in me the fire of your love.

    I am always asking for wisdom and knowledge, and to increase my faith. I don't know if that makes me a charismatic Catholic, but I do believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I wouldn't be able to be here without the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Keep up your work.

    God Bless

    [ September 26, 2001: Message edited by: Disciple 2001 ]
     
  3. donnA

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    Not accept them, seems to me the scripture say the Holy Spirit gives gifts of whatever kind to whoever He see fit. It's not our choice.
     
  4. Kathryn S.

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    Katie:
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Not accept them, seems to me the scripture say the Holy Spirit gives gifts of whatever kind to whoever He see fit. It's not our choice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Because of freewill, we can accept or reject any gift of God. We also can ask or pray for any of God's gifts. Scripture teaches us to ask. God however decides what is best for us.

    God Bless
     
  5. DHK

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    The miraculous sign gifts as described in 1Cor. 12:7-11 are not for today. They ceased when the revelation of God was completed, that is to say when the Bible was complete. They ceased to be by the end of the first century when they were no longer needed.
    Any one who claims to have any of these gifts today is either ignorant of what these gifts really are, or, if they do understand what these gifts are and still claim to have them they are simply frauds and charlatans. They ceased. They are not for today. There are many deceivers and deceived in this world today.
    DHK
     
  6. Eladar

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    If you are going to say those things, perhaps you should have proof of that. All I have read is your opinion.

    Where's the proof? (By the way, I agree with your position, I just know I would be highly offended by your post if I didn't)
     
  7. Lorelei

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1 Corinthians 13
    8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
    9
    For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    10
    But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Many argue that which is perfect is Jesus, but it does not say when HE who is perfect is come. There are reasons to believe that this means the Bible. Let us not forget that when the Apostles were giving these gifts, the New Testament was not yet written. The letters of that day were just being penned. They needed the guidance as the church entered into this new age.

    If we look at the entire New Testament where the gifts were actually used we see that the gifts were always for a purpose. Now that we have the New Testament, we don't need the gift of knowledge. We can go the Word and gain knowledge.

    Chet explained it well in his other thread. Maybe he will be nice enough to give us a refresher course on his Biblical explanation of why he believes they have ceased.

    I also think that 1 Corinthians 12 is pretty clear that God gives the gifts to each one as God determines (v 11). It also says to one is given this gift and to another that gift. Therefore not everyone will have the same gift. Do you think that God does not want us all to have knowledge? Knowledge as a "gift" was for a specific purpose, to share God's revelation of how the church age was to unfold. It was to give us insight into things that were relevant. Once this was written down for everyone to see the "gift" in itself is not necessary, but knowledge gained through reading the Word is!

    ~Lorelei
     
  8. myreflection26

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    I have yet to see any proof that gifts have ceased except those who once again don't want to accept them. We may have them but the holy spirit is a gentleman and will not force anything on us.

    I have given scripture to proove they do still exsist, and that is what I stand on and I do practice these gifts thru the holy spirit.

    Sue
     
  9. Lorelei

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I have given scripture to proove they do still exsist, and that is what I stand on and I do practice these gifts thru the holy spirit.

    Sue
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You gave scripture supporting the fact that they did indeed exist in the Bible. You did not prove that they still exist today. I offered a verse that proved that there will come a time when they will cease (1 Corinthians 13). I will grant you the fact that I have not yet proven that time has come, I am working on that, but can you prove to me that it has not? (According to scripture not your experience)

    BTW, what gifts do you have?

    Where were those gifts from the time of the New Testament was written until 1900?

    ~Lorelei

    [ September 25, 2001: Message edited by: Lorelei ]
     
  10. myreflection26

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    Lor,

    Well since it has yet to be proven the date of it being ceased it remains to stand that it is still going on.

    I have the gift of tounges and discernment although I must admit my husband has a seriously high gift of discernment and mine is improving greatly.

    Sue
     
  11. Lorelei

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    And you use this gift of languages according to 1 Corinthians 14? If you are a female, then how can you use this gift to edify the church (1 Corinthians 14:5 "I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying" ) if you are to be silent in the church (1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law." )?

    1 Corinthians 14:22 "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not" How is your gift fulfilling this purpose?

    You mentioned that you were improving at your gift. If the Holy Spirit is the source of your gift, you should not need to learn it. Show me in scripture where it says that those who are given gifts need to improve and work on those gifts? WHere are the guidelines for how to do that? If you are using it "through the Holy Spirit" as you stated, then does not the Holy Spirit know how to implement that gift already?

    One thing you should realize is the reason I have "not" proven my stand is that it is indeed a new one for me. It wasn't until recently that I began doing research on the gifts of the Spirit. I am not professing to be a scholar, but I am reading the Word and the more I read the Word the less I see proof of the evidence of gifts for today.

    I would be more apt to listen to your point of view if you would back up what you say with scripture. You never did find that verse you were looking for about the laying on of hands. I do not wish to take your word for it, I would like to see it in print myself. I even tried to help you, but you seemed not to care.

    So before you label me as someone "who does not wish to accept them" then prove to me biblically why I should. You refer to 1 Corinthians 12, it says that God gives the gift as it pleases Him. If that is so, how come I need to ask for it?

    ~Lorelei

    [ September 25, 2001: Message edited by: Lorelei ]
     
  12. Michael Wrenn

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    Lorelei,

    Do you close your mouth when you walk through the church door and don't open it again until you pass back through that door on your way out?
     
  13. Lorelei

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    Michael,

    I don't speak in tongues (languages) during church (or at any other time). If you read Chapter 14 you will see that it is talking about the use (and misuse) of the gifts of tongues and about how to have order while practicing those gifts in the service. Then again, maybe you don't care what the Word of God says. Either way, can we stick to the subject?

    You know you knack for taking my words out of context over and over gets annoying. If you have a Bible and would like to use it to tell me I am wrong, then go ahead, otherwise I will refrain from commenting any longer.


    ~Lorelei
     
  14. DHK

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    1 Corinthians 14: Tongues and Prophesying.
    This chapter is a discussion of the relative value of tongues and prophesying, which seem to have been the two gifts most sought after. In context prophesying was not predicting the future, but having the gift of teaching on a lofty plane, a special aid of the spirit given for the purpose of teaching. It was far more valuable than tongues because everybody understood it. Paul forbids the women to speak aloud in the meetings.
    Note the restrictions that Paul gives against speaking in tongues, as well as the arguments put forward not to speak in tongues:

    1. It is the least important gift listed in 12:28.
    2. It ceased with the completion of the N.T. (13:8-13)
    3. Don't speak in tongues because no man understands you (14:1-3)
    4. Because it does not edify anyone (14:3,4)
    5. Because 5 words of understanding are better than 10,000 words in an unknown tongue (14:19)
    6. Because the gift of tongues was given as a sign to the unbelieving Jew. If therefore there is no unbelieving Jew present it is an unscriptural gift (14:21,22)
    7. There should be no more than 2 or at the most 3 that should speak in tongues, and then always turn by turn
    8. There must be an interpreter, if there is no interpreter he must be silent! (27,28)
    9. The women must keep silence in the church. It is not permitted for them to speak. It is a shame for women to speak in the church. (34,35)

    If you are not adhering to all these stipulations that Paul puts on speaking in tongues, then you don't have the gift. Quite frankly you have been deceived. What language are you speaking in, when you speak in tongues (yes a real known language)? If your a woman (and by your name, Sue, I assume you are), then the gift is not, was not, for you. Even if you satisfied the above, if there is no unbelieving Jew present, then it is unbiblical, for it is a sign to the unbelieving Jew. Whatever you have, it is not the Biblical gift of speaking in tongues.
    DHK
     
  15. myreflection26

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    [ September 26, 2001: Message edited by: Joseph Botwinick ]
     
  16. myreflection26

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    Lor,

    I was not speaking of you when I said those who don't wish to accept it, I was speaking of people in general who do not accept the gifts, if that happens to be you then I suppose its to you but that was not my intent so I do apologize.

    Also, I was not saying my gift of discernment needed to be learned, I was saying over time it has improved as a grow more in Jesus. I also never said tounges must be asked for to recieve it, at least I don't think I did,,,,,did I?

    Btw,,,where the laying on of hands is concerned, I wasn't trying to be unconcerned with it, I gave scripture to back it up and you pointed out that it didn't say actual laying on of hands to recive healing and I said that my bible says that so it must be a version difference.

    I never really meant to get into a personal attack with you, I hope that is not how you took it and if you did I am sorry.

    Sue

    [ September 26, 2001: Message edited by: Joseph Botwinick ]
     
  17. myreflection26

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    DHK,

    Why do people still use that it will cease or it will pass away scripture to back up already being ceased? That is so much error its not even funny, it says where there are these gifts they WILL or SHALL pass away or cease meaning it will happen but it's speaking of in the future not now.

    The perfect coming being Jesus and Jesus already came? I don't think so, 1 Cor. was written after Jesus went back to heaven so what perfection are we waiting for? It would make sense to me that would be the second coming of Christ, now I don't know that for sure being I've not looked deeper into that so don't take that as my final word (not authority,,,word) but that is what would make sense to me.

    Oh and those instructions Paul had given us were not to tell us not to speak in tounges since he made that clear by telling us not to forbid speaking in tounges :rolleyes: they were to put priorities where they needed to be, obviously tounges is least of all gifts, used to edify the church and ones self as scripturally noted in 1 Cor. 14 :D

    Sue [​IMG]
     
  18. Lorelei

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
    Why do people still use that it will cease or it will pass away scripture to back up already being ceased? That is so much error its not even funny, it says where there are these gifts they WILL or SHALL pass away or cease meaning it will happen but it's speaking of in the future not now<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Because it wasn't written today, it was written in the past. With your line of reasoning, it will never happen because the words in print will always say shall or will.


    ~Lorelei

    [ September 26, 2001: Message edited by: Lorelei ]
     
  19. DHK

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    "Forbid not to speak in tongues" (in the first century). Taken in context this verse cannot apply to us for the reasons already given.

    1 Cor. 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
    9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
    13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

    Notice that the greatest gift is charity (love). Let's try and understand why. There are three groups of gifts: 1) temporary sign gifts (tongues, prophecies, and revelatory knowledge),
    2) semi-permanent gifts (faith and hope), and
    3) permanent gift (love).
    The greatest of all of these is love because it will endure forever through all eternity. It will never end.
    What about faith. (2 Cor 5:7 KJV) " (For we walk by faith, not by sight [​IMG]" That is, when we see Jesus, we will no longer have need of faith.
    Heb.11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
    Likewise hope:
    Rom.8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
    25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
    --Hope that is seen is not hope. Thus when we see Jesus our hope will end. He is our hope. We will no longer have to hope for him to come. Thus at His Coming, faith and hope will end. Only love will continue. That is why love is the greatest. It only is permanent. Faith and hope are semi-permanent gifts ceasing at the second coming.

    Verse 8 of 1Cor.13, says that prophecies shall fail, tongues shall cease, and knowledge shall vanish away. The question is "when?" Verse 9 says we know in part and we prophesy in part. The New Testament believers did not have all of the Word of God. They had the Old Testament, and maybe one or two of the New Testament books, like Matthew or James which were written earlier than the others. Therefore they knew in part. They only had "part" of the Word of God. Thus, they had the gift of prophesy (as well as tongues and revelatory knowledge) to give them further revelation of the Word of God. They knew in part and they prophesied in part.
    Now verse 10 says, "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." The pronoun "that," in the Greek is in the neuter gender, not in the masculine. It therefore cannot refer to Jesus Christ, otherwise the Holy Spirit would have used a masculine pronoun to refer to Him. The word ‘that,' ("that which is perfect"), refers to the Word of God. The old English Word "perfect" means "complete." When the Word of God is completed then that which is in part (the temporary sign gifts of tongues, prophesying, and revelatory knowledge), shall be done away.
    When that which is perfect (complete) is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
    The Word of God was completed about 95-98 a.d. when John finished the Book of Revelation. All the sign gifts ceased by the end of the first century. They were not needed any more. The only revelation that we need now is contained within the pages of the Bible. And the Lord gives a stern warning about adding to that (Rev. 22:18,19).
    DHK
     
  20. Kathryn S.

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    I don't see anything here or the whole chapter to indicate that the gifts passed away with the apostles. It is saying the gifts will pass away like everything else, but not love.

    This is talking about the when Jesus Christ comes. When that which is perfect comes isn't the bible. When we see face to face, this is speaking of when we are face to face with God. Not when we have a bible in front of us.

    It says here "then I shall know fully even as also I was fully known." This is when we have gone to heaven. Not now. The gifts will all pass away. Only love will remain. It is saying that without love nothing else matters.

    God Bless

    [ September 26, 2001: Message edited by: Disciple 2001 ]
     

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