Charles Stanley : Millenial Exclusion

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Revmitchell, Oct 8, 2008.

  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
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    STANLEY ERROR -- Further evidence on the Overcomer error is reflected in Dr. Stanley's book entitled Eternal Security, Oliver-Nelson Books, 1990:

    To be in "outer darkness" is to be in the kingdom of God but outside the circle of men and women where faithfulness on this earth earned them special rank and position of authority [emphasis his] (p. 126).

    Now imagine standing before God and seeing all you have lived for reduced to ashes. How do you think you would feel? How do you think you would respond? Picture yourself watching saint after saint rewarded for faithfulness and service to the King--and all the time knowing that you had just as many opportunities but did nothing about them.

    We cannot conceive of the agony and frustration we would feel if we were to undergo such an ordeal; the realization that our unfaithfulness had cost us eternally would be devastating. And so it will be for many believers.

    Just as those who are found faithful will rejoice, so those who suffer loss will weep. As some are celebrated for their faithfulness, others will gnash their teeth in frustration over their own shortsightedness and greed (p. 127).

    ________________________________________________

    Very Sad
     
  2. donnA

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    1990? Been a long time hasn't it, and it's just now caught someones attention?
    That is sad isn't it.
    Of course if we had it in context with the rest of the chapter we might actually be able to tell whats going on with this quote, and since we don't...
     
  3. TCGreek

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    Yet he has not been excluded from SBC and so on...
     
  4. JDale

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    I have followed Dr. Stanley's ministry sine the early 1980's. I have never, in listening to hundreds upon hundreds of his messages though the years, heard him preach anything remotely close to "Millennial exclusion."

    What you read here from his book Eternal Security: Can You Be Sure, certainly may be an incredible (and unscriptural) stretch at his attempt to defend one of his pet doctrines ("Once Saved, Always Saved), but I don't for a second believe he is literally teaching that some "believers" will be excluded from the Millenium.

    Unless someone can do better than that from sermons or writings much more recent than 1990, I suggest withholding accusation against an "Elder" as is Biblical. Only when the accusations can be substantiated by MORE than one witness should it be heard.

    In any case, I hope to see Dr. Stanley within the next month, and if I get to speak to him, I will ask him about this issue!

    JDale
     
  5. PeterM

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    While there may be some who do not hold to eternal security (I am not one of them) to assert that it is one of Stanley's "pet doctines" is silly and ignores the fact of Christian history.
     
  6. Alive in Christ

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    Personally, I still cant understand why the ME teaching recieved such a scathing rebuke and condemnation from the "higher ups" here at the Baptist Board.

    I've looked into it...checking out one of their websites extensively...and although I dont see things the way they do, I certainly never came upon anything that even remotely contradicted the essentials of the faith. I view them as brothers and sisters who see some non-essentials differently than I do.

    Regarding Charles Stanley, I believe he might mean something different than the ME folks do regarding the "outer darkness" Dr Stanley spoke of.


    :godisgood:
     
  7. Revmitchell

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    ME teaches two Salvation's One is eternal and based on grace the other is Millennial and is based on works. ME proponents parse terms:

    Kingdom of God = Millennium

    Kingdom of Heaven = Eternity

    You can look in the gospels and see how this creates problems in scripture.

    As far as Dr. Stanley goes I would love to see that he in fact does not hold to this heresy. I first saw reference to him supporting this in an article I read at bible.org. I emailed the author and and asked him about it. His understanding was that he did hold to ME but that he(the author) had no problem with it although he did not hold to it.

    Looking at the quote from his book there is no context in which the idea would be changed. I hope my sources and understanding of hs book are wrong.
     
  8. ray Marshall

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    I am one of the defenders of the eternal security also. Gives me my inward peace.
     
  9. JDale

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    Out of all that I wrote, that's all you got Peter? There isn't a smiley face icon that could express my incredulity....

    JDale
     
  10. drfuss

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    drfuss: Charles Stanley has a somewhat different eternal security belief than most SBC Christians assuming the Adrian Rogers Bible Study book, taught in our Bible Study class, represents the SBC. Adrian Rogers indicated that a True Christian would not stop trusting Christ.

    On Charles Stanley's website (and in his book on Eternal Security) is the the folowing paragraph about eternal security from his section on "Those Who Stop Believing":

    'I imagine that a woman who has gone through an experience like the one described above would always have faith in firemen and their nets. But even if she did not, the fact remains that she was saved from the fire. In the same way, in all probability, a Christian who has expressed faith in Christ and experienced forgiveness of sin will always believe that forgiveness is found through Him. But even if the believer does not, the fact remains that he is forgiven."

    Note the following in the last sentence:

    1. Stanley allows that a True Christian can stop trusting in Christ.
    2. A True Christain who stops trusting in Christ will still be forgiven and will therefore go to heaven even if he is not trusting Christ when he dies.


    Perhaps this different eternal security belief relates to the issue in the OP.
     
  11. JDale

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    It was certainly at least part of the point I was speaking to Dr. Thank you.
     
  12. webdog

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    I don't see the problem with that. Either salvation is dependant on God, or us continuing to trust (and I'm speaking after one is saved by grace through faith). Scripture states when we are faith-LESS He remains faith-FULL.
     
  13. Martin

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    Let me say several things about this issue.

    Dr. Stanley's statement in his book "Eternal Security: Can You Be Sure" not only contradicts Scripture it also contradicts Charles Stanley himself. As an In Touch Ministries representative told me in a letter last November, "This seemed to be different than what he has said in the past". Indeed they did a search of every message Dr. Stanley has preached and everything he has written and found that when discussing the "outer darkness" Dr. Stanley "always refers to 'outer darkness' as a description from God". In my experience that is a true statement.

    For example, in his 1998 In Touch Study Series guidebook "Understanding Eternal Security" Dr. Stanley clearly says that the "outer darkness" is hell.

    "People can perish and be separated from God eternally if they do not face their sin problem and receive God's provision for it. Jesus spoke very clearly about this in Matthew 25..."

    Dr. Stanley then proceeds to quote Matthew 25:30,41,46. See Page 11.

    That is in agreement with the other messages (etc) Dr. Stanley has preached over the many years of his ministry.

    Now, since that IS the case how do we explain his statement on page 127 in his book "Eternal Security: Can You Be Sure"? I will answer that question with a quote from the letter sent to me by a representative of In Touch Ministries (Dated: Nov. 16, 2007):

    "we honestly do not know why or how this contradiction occurred in this one instance. It may have been in the editing process or some other process of the book's publisher, Thomas Nelson. We are looking into other possibilities."

    Book publishers can and do edit books in ways which cause problems. In recent years Dr. John MacArthur had that problem with his book "Hard To Believe". It is also possible that Andy Stanley's influence on the writing of this book may be one reason some statements in the book are inconsistant with the lifelong teachings of Dr. Stanley.

    Another thing we should think about is when the book was written. It was written in 1990. It was during that time that men like Dr. Zane Hodges first made names for themselves in the theological world. Men like Hodges are the people who have pushed the Millenial Exclusion doctrine onto the church. Just one glance at Dr. Stanley's footnotes and it becomes clear that when the book was written Dr. Stanley was very dependent upon Dr. Hodges. Dr. Stanley is not a technical theologian and therefore may have taken many of Hodges' statements as technically correct. Writing a book on this theological subject may have caused him to attempt to deal with issues that he had never really thought about before. I don't know if any of my suggestions are true. I just toss them out there. However I think we need to look at the totality of Dr. Stanley's message on these verses and not one page out of one book.

    In short, I don't believe that Dr. Stanley holds to the Millenial Exclusion doctrine. Why not? Because page 127 in the book "Eternal Security" is an obvious contradiction to what he has said before 1990 and after 1990.

    This, btw, is why we should always judge everything we read by Scripture. It does not matter who wrote it, we should carefully judge it by Scripture. People make mistakes, people get off track at times, Scripture never does. Therefore we should judge everything by Scripture.

    Ps..."Eternal Security: Can You Be Sure" should be pulled from the shelves, corrected, and re-released.
     
    #13 Martin, Oct 10, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 10, 2008
  14. drfuss

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    From drfuss post:
    Note the following in the last sentence:

    1. Stanley allows that a True Christian can stop trusting in Christ.
    2. A True Christain who stops trusting in Christ will still be forgiven and will therefore go to heaven even if he is not trusting Christ when he dies.

    drfuss: My first point was that Stanley indicated a person could be a True Christain and then stop trusting Christ. Adrian Rogers study book and most of the SBC believes anyone who stops trusting in Christ was not a True Christian in the first place. Doesn't perseverence of the Saints mean a True Christain will continue to trust Chrsit for the rest of his life?

    My second point is that Stanley believes it is possible for a person to get to heaven even if he is not trusting Christ when he dies. Do any other evangelical Christians believe a person can get to heaven without trusting Christ when he dies?
     
  15. Bob Alkire

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    I believe Bob Thieme and some in the Grace Society groups have taught that. I'm not a 100% sure and don't have any books to back me up on it but believe I have heard it and read it.
     
  16. drfuss

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    drfuss: About two years ago, Lifeway did a survey on what percentage of SBC ministers were 5 Point Calvinists.

    It would be interesting if Lifeway did a similiar survey on what percentage of SBC ministers agreed with Charley Stanley's version of eternal security.
     

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