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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Lacy Evans, Oct 13, 2006.
Is chastening limited to this life or does God chasten at the JSOC?
Chastening is always limited to this life. We will appear before the JSOC, not for chastening but to receive or to lose reward.
Conclusion--no chastening. Receiving a reward is not chastening.
The loss of a reward is not chastening. When a runner loses a race he is not being chastened, and this is the illustration being used. To imply this is chastening is ridiculous.
Chastening is always limited to this life. Read the context. Look at the next verse.
1 Timothy 5:25 Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.
--Let's use a specific example and see the meaning of the verse. Some sins are made manifest or declared openly before the JSOC, and some are not. They will be revealed later at the JSOC.
Example: Some men have affairs that turn into public scandals. They are made manifest before the JSOC on this earth. They are open beforehand, before the judgement. Some follow after. Verse 25 says they cannot be hid. Nothing is hidden from God, not an affair, not even lusting after another woman in your heart (which Jesus also calls adultery), and no one else may no about it. It will be made manifest before God. Some sins will follow after. They will be made manifest at the JSOC. The result will be in a loss of reward; not in chastisement. Chastisment is always on this earth, not in heaven or at any time thereafter.
Chastisement is always limited to this earth.
But this isn't even speaking of chastisement. Have you bothered to read the entire chapter? Do you know what it is talking about, or are you just taking verses out of context to suit your own purposes. These verses are speaking of false prophets who have never been saved in the first place. Go up further in the chapter and read a description of them. It is impossible for these people to have ever been saved in the first place. They knew the way of salvation, but that doesn't mean they were saved. Their latter end is worse than their first, for as Romans two teaches they accumulate sin upon sin. As the unsaved always do--the dog returns to its own vomit. That is not a description of a saved man. So what is your point here?
Yes you need to forgive him however many times Jesus says.
It is on this earth.
Chastisement is always limited to this earth.
This is a parable. A parable is an earthly story with a "heavenly meaning" so to speak. In other words it is meant to get across one central point or teaching. Most parables are meant only to teach one central teaching. No parable introduces no doctrine. They illustrate doctrine that is already established in Scripture.
The lesson Jesus was teaching here is forgiveness. As the Lord forgave his servant; the servant should have had compassion on his fellowservant. That is the lesson Jesus was teaching. That is the only lesson Jesus was teaching. To read further into it is to do injustice to the Scriptures. It is a parable. It teaches one central point and that is all. It was a lesson on forgiveness. Not everything in the parable is relevant. The importance of this parable is its teaching on forgiveness, not on punishment. Jesus was not teaching or illustrating anything on punishment. You gave the context yourself from Mat.18:21--forgiveness.
Chastening is always limited to this earth.
And so it was with the Israelites.
God chastened them on this earth. But more importantly God did not allow them to enter into the promised land because of unbelief. There was no chastening involved here. No belief; no promised land. Pure and simple.
So it is with salvation; no belief--no salvation. Salvation requires faith in Christ. There is no chastening involved whatsoever. No belief; no salvation. The lesson was simple.
You love parables don't you. So do the cults. They get lots of doctrine from parables. Entire cults are based on warped teachings from parables.
Chastening is always limited to this earth.
However in this parable the lesson is simple: Every man will face the Lord and will give account of themselves. There will be no chastening--only a giving account of what was done on earth. If the parable is speaking of saved individuals it will be a loss of reward at the judgement seat of Christ.
If the parable is speaking of the unsaved, they will indeed be cast out into outer darkness or into the Lake of Fire at the Great White Throne Judgement in the final judgement in Rev.20:10-15.
There is no chastisement here.
I'll just move my post from the last thread.
Why do you insist that God becomes a New Ager after we die? How can you deny God the right to use the rod at the judgment seat? Discipline IN THIS LIFE always applies to this life. But what about the rich man being tormented in the flames of hell? Did he forget that discipline was only in this life?
The Lord did not design the public school system that you are equating with the JSOC. It is man's fallen nature to not properly discipline children. This is the Lord's idea of reward for failure to do what is required.
Proverbs 19:29 Judgments are prepared for scorners, and stripes for the back of fools.
Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Receiving bad at the judgment seat will not be a frowny face on your report card.
Don't change my words, and then make a lie. Use some ethics and quote me. I never said that God becomes a New Ager did I? And I resent you saying so.
I spoke about "New Age discipline," and never attributed it to God. In fact I did the exact opposite, and attributed it to the ways of the world. You just lost a great deal of respect with me.
Did God chasten the rich man in Hell. I hardly think so. He threw that wretched unsaved sinner into the depths and torments of Hell where he deserved what he got to burn forever and ever in the blackness of eternal condemnation to be forever separated from God almighty.
Chastisement? NO! Eternal punishment of the wicked? Yes!
That is what I said. In this New Age system of discipline chastisement doesn't consist of taking away a reward.
Chastisement, as is shown in Proverbs--and as you quoted--always consisted of a rod, that is physical punishment. That kind of punishment only took place on earth and nowhere else in the Bible. It does not take place in Heaven. It does not take place in the Millennial Kingdom for believers. It does not take place even in Hell as they have their own punishment. It only takes place on earth.
Chastisement is limited to earth. Find any Scripture anywhere in the Bible where there is any chastisement outside of this earth.
Do you mean Saved or the Unsaved when referring to being chastened at JSOC?
Hmm - I have to agree with DHK on this point. He is absolutely right.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Actually when Jesus ENDS the Parable He THEN gives HIS OWN summary -- why not listen to HIM instead?
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Those are the Words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ OUTSIDE of the Parable.
Question -- should we listen to Him?
Should we pay attention to what He is saying?
When He saed "SO shall" He is saying "in the SAME WAY shall my Father..."
Question -- "In the same way as WHAT"???
Can we afford to listen to Jesus on this?
I believe that only Christians will be at the JSOC.
That's pretty rich for someone who so flippantly throws around the word "Catholic" like he does. We never claimed to believe in "Purgatory" and we resented it when you called us "Catholic". You really seem adept at dishing without concern for how resentful others might be. Not quite as fun when the shoe's on the other fooy huh?
That's an out and out lie, Lacy. You have been pushing the purging of the soul while they miss the Millenial Kingdom for several days now on several threads. You do believe in purgatory, you just call it by another name.
A rose by any other name... is still a rose.
Your doctrine is Catholic, modeled after the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. Why not look at the title of the former thread: "Baptist Purgatory."
To attribute to me that I said the blasphemous statement that God is a New Ager, is inconceivable, unconsciouable, and an outright slanderous lie. It requires no less than an apology. If the same thing was done in the secular world he would be sued for slander.
That previous thread was Protestant Purgatory. And the same lies in it were started in this one. Either way one looks at the doctrine of Millenial Exclusion, it is Purgatory, and it is a damnable doctrine, IMO.
If one could be cleansed of sins done in the body why is the rich man still in hell waiting for that final judgment day? Why, when death and hell deliver up their dead, are the dead judged according to their works and then cast into the lake of fire for all eternity?
It is amazing that the rich man is not cleansed by now if the lake of fire cleanses and purges as these ME proponents claim it does.
Why, there should be no one but saints in hell if that were true.
No, my friend, you are right. The slander against you, I and others who have been defending the truth as written in God's Holy Word deserves no less than an apology to us, and a repentant plea for forgiveness to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
I believe I did quote you. I'll quote you again.
So according to you, at the judgment seat of Christ, there is no "chastening", only God doling out some New Age discipline (loss of rewards).
Less cookies and candy - vs more cookies and candy.
Exercise for the reader.
In 2Cor 5:10 (you know - the judgment seat of Christ text) we all must stand before the judgment seat of Christ and given an account for the deeds we have done - whether they be good or evil.
According to scripture (that would be the Word of God - not the Word of man- or some really nice stories you have heard) what is the "reward for evil deeds"??
Think about it? Does Romans 6:23 come to mind at all??
"The wages of sin is LESS COOKIES and candy"??
What a riot!:applause: :laugh:
Even though Luke 16 is just a parable - you still have a good argument in that last point!! Nice going!
Plenty for the devil, them that worketh abomination and them that make a lie.
None for the saved, its reward time!!!!!! :love2:
Luke 16 is not a parable. Nowhere in the Bible is it said, or even inferred, that the story of the rich man in hell is a parable.
We know it is not a parable for Jesus speaks of a certain person in the story. He speaks of Lazarus. He does not give names in the parables found in the Word, but here He mentions Lazarus.
The rich man mentions being torment. He remembers things of the earth, he remembers his brothers.. Why, he even remembers the beggar, Lazarus.
No, my friend, this is not a parable. This is reality. It is a warning of the coming torment for those who die without the Lord as Savior.
You must be talking to Bob R;
I believe it as you just stated.
You have misunderstood something, brother. This is not about going to have your sins purged so that you are clean enough to go to heaven.
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
This is about receiving a just recompense for your works. In regard to eternal salvation, unbelievers do not get 'purged' any more than believers do. And notice that the rich man is not in the lake of fire. He is in hell.