Chastening

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by menageriekeeper, Jun 16, 2008.

  1. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper
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    From the role of the wife thread:



    Shane, a person is chastised because of their sin, not by their sin. Perhaps this is what you meant?

    But, how do you know that this man is not being chastened? You have no way of knowing what God is doing in this man's life.

    Do you believe that chastening is a quick process, like a spanking, and then it's done? Experience will tell you that God often spends years turning back a disobedient son. You simply haven't lived long enough to have seen this for yourself.

    I also would appreciate your views on whether a son can ignore the chastening of a father with view to how God chastens us.
     
  2. Brother Shane

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    I know one thing menagerie - God is not sitting back and letting him sin. A saved person knows how they should act and how they should not act. I do not believe God puts a time limit on his work, but I do believe that He would not delay the work in this man's life. I draw my conclusion by the fact this lady made him file for divorce, so I assume (with her being a Christian), she did everything in her power to lead him back to Christ.


    I know that if both the woman and man were in the will of God, this would not have happened -- nor the divorce. She is still married to this man. It seems like to me they both are out of the will of God. If a man never repents of his sins and continues to live in sin without conviction and doing so freely - he is not being chasten and is not saved. I do not know if this woman will share that about her husband, but I would like to know if he is fine with himself. Apparently -- he is. He went off and got him a woman and is shacking with her. It does not sound like God is working in his life to me -- nor does He want God to.



    I do not understand what you're asking. Are you asking 1) can a child of God ignore the chastening of God and 2) how does God chasten us?
     
  3. nunatak

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    Brother Shane,
    I think your signature is overkill.
     
  4. menageriekeeper

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    Shane, real life has gotten in the way of my responding to this thread.

    I'll be back later this morning with a complete answer. Until then I want your opinion on #1: Can a Christian ignore the chastening of God.

    Please remember that our opinions don't count without scriptural support, so please include the basis for your opinion in your post.
     
  5. superwoman8977

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    Shane,

    You are 17 years old and quite frankly no clue about life. I am 30 and now going through a divorce with 2 kids and 40,000.00 in debt when you get to that point call me. My husband is being dealt with I believe but not in a way you or I can see at the moment which at the moment frustrates me greatly and I find myself in my quiet time saying Ok God when is he going to get his? God is dealing with him although for me its not fast enough, etc but its in His timing not mine. Is there reconciliation in our marriage--I really dont want there to be he has put me and the kids through enough which I think is my punishment for loving someone I dont know but to sit there on your "throne" and call people unsaved etc is not your call, its Gods call.
     
  6. mparkerfd20

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    Shane may not have the experience some of us have had, but I don't think we should totally discredit him based on his age either. That said, I don't think Shane is judging anyone's salvation.

    My wife, a friend, and I were talking about this yesterday, but I think that most people completely misunderstand what is meant by "judging" someone. You often hear people say "Well I'm not trying to judge someone, but"... Why do we do that? I contend that it's because we don't understand what the word means.

    The context of judging in "Judge not that you be not judged", means finding pleasure in someone else's faults. Pointing out sin for the sake of correction is not the same thing. Christians shouldn't become blind to truth and lose their perceptions when they become Christians, but they should refrain from eagerly judging people. He that judges according to the word of God, and forms his judgement out of love, always begins by subjecting himself to the same examination. This passage is all too often misapplied so that it stops Christians from having the right to discern good and evil. As Christians, we are not only permitted, but are bound to condemn all sins out of love and a hope to help others see their faults and come to repentance.

    All of that said, superwoman8977 I have no doubt that this has been a very tough situation for you and probably continues to be. I will be praying for you and your "soon to be ex husband". :praying:
     
  7. Brother Shane

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    Menagerie, I do believe that a Christian can ignore the chastening of the Lord. First, when we do something and we know it is wrong, we will have that burning in our heart. We will have that resistance and hear that voice that says "don't do it." If we continue to ignore that calling from the LORD, we have ignored Him on the first account.

    Next, the LORD is going to get our attention. Problems are going to pop up in your life... such as marriage troubles, financial woes, loss of friendships -- and the order you once had in your life is gone. We know from scripture that God is a God of order (Psalm 37:23) -- and marriage takes order, so does finance, and so does friendships. Without order, you can not control what happens in your life. God gets out attention by the sudden change that we were used to in our life.

    The LORD can touch our health. This is probably going to have the biggest impact on you personally if this is the way that God wants to deal with you. I do believe that if you do not repent after the sudden change of former ordered things in your life, this will be next. Touching the way you feel and the way you live life will most definitely get your attention. I am not saying He is doing this in a given order, just noting what I believe, yet still providing ways that the LORD does indeed chasten us.

    Hebrews 12:5-6 - "And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him; for whom the Lord loveth he chastened, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth"

    I believe that you can ignore the chastening of God for a short while. For my sake, I am not putting a time frame on it. I know people that claim to be saved, yet for their whole life has continued to drink alcohol and not yet have stopped drinking and getting drunk. One can not help but wonder if they are saved, how can they go about doing something so freely?

    Why would God allow us to be saved, yet after a while go out and fornicate/get drunk/adulterize -- when he specifically says that these people will not go to Heaven? The fact that these people will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven -- I do not believe that our LORD Jesus Christ will chasten someone and stay with it for a long period of time. He knows if one was ever saved to begin with. To get the chastening of God, you have to be saved. The chastening of God is the most powerful discipline on earth. I do not think that one can continually ignore the chastening of the LORD and be saved.

    I know I am saved because when I do wrong, I am chastened. From personal experience, I know when God says "shape up!" I know that I can not go long without repenting of something that comes across in my life. If one will practice this form of discipline, you will become more and more like Christ. Look, I do not have what you call an "awesome testimony" like so many people go 'round saying. I never was an awful person. I never went out and did the things that every teenager does. I just knew that if I did not have God in my life -- I was doomed for hell. I knew that good works will not get you to Heaven. I was 9-years-old when I accepted Jesus as Saviour and have never looked back -- not one bit. God and I have been through a lot -- and from someone who is truly saved -- I will never run 'round on my wife, fornicate, get drunk, murder, do drugs etc., simply because God plays such a huge role in my life. You see, when God does such a thing, you do not even have the time to get into this stuff. I knew that if I did, there would be serious consequences to pay -- maybe even "death unto sin". I know that the God I serve does not just forgive and smile, He also deals consequences. I know how strict that He used to be -- and I know He never changes. I know God hates -- and I know I would never want to face his wrath.

    So, to sum this all up -- yes, a Christian can ignore the chastening of the LORD.
     
  8. ReformedBaptist

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    Brother Shane,

    I am writing this to you not to debate you, but to offer some exhortation. I would also say that it is not proper for those to look down upon you because you are young. But I think you can agree that with some years under your belt you would have grown in wisdom? I believe you hope in the Lord to grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus over time and that you will be more mature in Christ 10 years from now than you are today, if God wills.

    I have read your posts and threads and I believe I understand the truth of what your trying to share. Simply put, those who make a life practice of sin are of the devil, and those who practice righteousness are of God. This is so clear from the teaching in 1 John its a wonder folks struggle with it.

    Jesus taught us that folks are known to be what sort they are of by their fruit. A man may say he has faith and knows God, but his deeds prove he is denying God and is a liar.

    I say this because I have not seen anything in error in the doctrine you have shared. It is doctrine according to godliness. The grace of God does not teach man he may continue in sin. It teaches mankind to deny ungodliness and to live righteously. If this has been your meaning, and I believe it has, then you have spoken the truth. Praise the Lord.

    And here is my exhortation to you my brother. All true Christians love the truth. Men perish because they will not receive the love of the truth (2 Thess 2:10). Those of us who love the truth oftentimes seek to teach it and be champions for it. It is godly to do so.

    But what was realized in Christ Jesus accoding the Aposlte John? It was grace AND truth. In Christ is the full realization of mercy and truth. To make this point, I am going to quote an article I ran accross on at the Founders Ministry website:

    "To point out the dangers that accompany the defense of truth, I refer to Mr. Valiant-for-Truth, a character from The Pilgrim's Progress, my favorite book next to the Bible. In John Bunyan's metaphor can be found some heart lessons.

    Mr. Valiant-for-Truth was "born in Dark-land" and his mother and father are still there. Dark-land was on the same coast as the City of Destruction. Valiant found Dark-land unsuitable and unprofitable and thus he forsook it. He gave these reasons for leaving:

    "We had one Mr. Tell-Truth come into our parts, and he told about what Christian had done. How he had left the City of Destruction to head for the Celestial City. That man so told the story of Christian and his travels that my heart fell into a burning haste to be gone after him, nor could my father and mother keep me, so, I got from them, and am come thus far on my way."

    The great lesson which Bunyan would have us learn from his impressive character, Valiant-for-Truth, comes from the terrible fight Valiant had with three ruffians who attacked him all at once and almost put an end to him.

    Valiant--his name tells us he was a contender for the truth. He had the truth. The truth was put into his keeping. He was a custodian of the truth. He was bound to defend the truth. He was thrown into a life of controversy and knew all the terrible temptations which accompany such a life. One old saint said, "Temptations in a life of controversy are worse than the temptations of whoredom and sin."

    Bunyan called the three enemies who attacked Valiant by these names: Wild-Head, Inconsiderate and Pragmatic. In his wisdom, John Bunyan is warning every defender of the truth, in religion or in other matters, of the besetting temptations to be wild-headed, inconsiderate, and officious, opinionated, dictatorial and intolerably arrogant.

    Now, this bloody battle--and a bloody battle it was indeed--was not fought at the mouth of any dark lane in the midnight city. This terrible, bloody battle was fought in Valiant's own heart.

    Bunyan's Valiant was not one of these smooth, double-tongued, calculating, supposed friends of the truth. He did not wait until he saw truth walking in silver slippers before he identified with it. He was not a church politician. No, no.

    Let a man lay a finger on the truth or wag a tongue against the truth, and he would surely have to settle it with Valiant. His love for truth was a passion. The fierceness of his love for the truth frightened ordinary men, even when they were on his side. Valiant could have died for truth without a murmur.

    But Valiant had to learn a hard and cruel lesson: Although he thought he was the best friend of truth, in reality at the same time he was a great enemy of the truth. He had to learn that although he meant to defend the truth he had indeed done it harm. The truth is often heard to say, "Save me from my friends." We have all seen examples of this and most of us have experienced it.

    We have seen Wild-Head in operation many times. Sometimes with his pen in hand. Sometimes behind the pulpit. Sometimes in private conversations or debate. We have seen him rush at the character of some saint who was just not enlightened, whose understanding was not as good as his Christian experience. Will Wild-Head never learn that truth apart from the Spirit will not develop Christian character? Grace and truth must be together. Mercy and truth must be together as they are in Jesus."
    http://www.founders.org/journal/fj27/article1.html

    Brother, may the grace and peace of God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ strenghten you in every way. I would also suggest that you get a copy of Bunyan's Pilgrims Progress, and even if you have read before, look at it again.

    God bless,
     
  9. Brother Shane

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    Shane,

    . I may have no clue how it is to live a life such as yours ma'am, but I have every clue as to how it is to live a life that is based on God's Word..
    Do not insinuate that everyone will make the same mistakes that you did. And if I were to make such mistakes, I would call upon the One who has all the answers and will not lead me down the road of destruction. Amen.
    You "made" him file for divorce -- why would you care how God deals with Him? God NEVER permitted us to divorce -- NEVER!!! Please correct me if I am wrong. God is dealing with him although for me its not fast enough, etc but its in His timing not mine.
    I never called HIM unsaved. Go back and re-evaluate what you read. I am going by his fruit (Matthew 7:20) and do not see how God can "work" in his life and allow him to sleep with another woman. In fact, if you truly think God is working in his life, why did you divorce him in the first place? If he is saved, you should have had faith.
     
    #9 Brother Shane, Jun 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2008
  10. mparkerfd20

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    So what exactly are you saying Reformed? Are you trying to correct him on something? It looks like you understand his doctrinal premise that he is taking (and I agree with your assessment that it is correct) and just trying to correct him for the sake of correcting him, but I'm missing what you are correcting him on.
     
  11. mparkerfd20

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    (Mat 5:32) But I say unto you, that every one that putteth away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, maketh her an adulteress: and whosoever shall marry her when she is put away committeth adultery.

    This is "permitting" isn't it?
     
  12. superwoman8977

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    Okay so allow me to stay in a dead marriage for the rest of my life when I know God has someone better for me out there. I do have the right to divorce because he was unfaithful to me and abused me. I hung on as long as I could but when the fruit was gone I knew it was time to pack it in. I am 40,000.00 in debt because I listened to my husband, listened to the words of God telling me to love and respect my husband to submit to my husband believe me as a Christian there were times I didnt want to do this or do that but as his wife I had no choice he was the head of the household and so I went along with it. I do my best to live a Godly life and raise my children to love the Lord as well. I attend church, study the word and believe me I know when things are wrong because the Lord will give me like this just gut feeling. None of us are perfect I was saved in 1995 and have strayed from the Lord till about 3 years ago when I got my life back together and started going to church and seeking Him, maybe it was the issues with my husband that started me thinking that I needed to live the right way I am not sure but I do the best that I can. Am I perfect, nope I still make mistakes but I know that the Lord loves me. I was also thinking about what you were saying about how the Lord would be working on my husband not to sleep with another woman well there is this thing and I cant remember where in the word I read it about the scales on someones eyes and them not being able to see the truth or the light of Christ. We can be so close to God and then one thing--one happening can make us run away from Him and when we are away from Him we can sin and the more and more we sin it doesnt bother us its also as a professor told me one time its called the loss of conscience. I think thats where my husband is right now.
     
  13. Brother Shane

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    No, it is not. Notice that this verse did not allow divorce because of adultery. What this scripture says is that the man would not be responsible for the woman committing adultery -- if she was already ("saving for the cause of fornication") committing adultery. How could this man possibly be in fault for the woman committing adultery? This scripture says that a man would be responsible for the sin of the woman (should she remarry) if he divorces her. The new translations permit divorce only if she cheats on him, but that is not what the scripture says. Divorce is a sin -- and you will also be responsible for their sin if they remarry, but will not be held accountable for the sin they committed already. Jesus would NEVER permit divorce! If you put your twisted thinking into action, then every man that looks on a woman has given his wife permission to divorce him (Matthew 5:28). This is just another example of how the world is twisting everything that Jesus ever taught. Open your eyes, y'all!
     
    #13 Brother Shane, Jun 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2008
  14. menageriekeeper

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    Shane, Mparker, I did not start this thread to discuss or continue to discuss Superwoman's marriage, divorce or the decisions she made thereof. If this sort of dicussion continues I will as that the mods shut this thread down!

    Superwoman, you have no need to justify yourself to anyone here on the BB, especially on this thread. My use of your husband's chastisement was mere convinience to start a dicussion of the various views of how God chastises his own. I appoligize if you thought I was somehow trying to judge you for decisions that were yours alone to make.

    RB, good post!

    Mods, if this thread continues to go off the topic of the chastisement of the Lord and onto subjects of a personal nature please don't wait for me to ask for it to be closed. Good ahead and use your best judgement.

    I will be gone for at least the next two hours as I have been asked to go help with the VBS program currently underway at my church.
     
  15. mparkerfd20

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    mparkerfd20: Nor did I mean to continue it and go against your reason for posting. I apologize.

    mparkerfd20: I'm not asking anyone to justify themselves here either. I was simply supporting the doctrinal position that Shane was taking in regards to the TOPIC you originally posted about. Again I apologize if more was taken from my postings than that.

    Superwoman I apologize to you if you felt like anything I've said was directly condemning or rebuking you or your situation. That wasn't my intention at all.
     
  16. Brother Shane

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    Leviticus 19:17 - "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him."
     
  17. ReformedBaptist

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    I am exhorting and correcting that truth without mercy and compassion is hurtful and an enemy of truth.
     
  18. mparkerfd20

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    I got that after going back and reading all of the article. I was sorta lost from just reading your post. And do know that I agree with you. Truth and mercy go together, but we have to be careful that neither truth or mercy overshadow the other as well.:thumbs:
     
  19. ReformedBaptist

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    I agree. This is one of the many things I love about Jesus. Both the fullness of truth and mercy are in Him. Glory to God!
     
  20. superwoman8977

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    Noun 1. chastisement - verbal punishment
    castigation
    penalisation, penalization, penalty, punishment - the act of punishing
    2. chastisement - a rebuke for making a mistake
    chastening, correction
    rebuke, reprehension, reprimand, reproof, reproval - an act or expression of criticism and censure; "he had to take the rebuke with a smile on his face"

    Okay this is what I found on the meaning of chastisement. In my opinion only Christ can chastise I dont see where we should chastise others the more I study about this. And this all goes back to the scales on the eyes. When we go to a person and confront them with something they havent done or need to do they arent going to see it from our point of view. Case in point my husband--he can have 200 people tell him he is wrong but he is so into the sin he doesnt see it until one day and thats where the prayers come in that God will open his eyes and he will then see oh golly I messed up and now I have lost my family, my home everything but that will happen in God's timetable, not mine. Thats why it is so important for satan to not have a foothold in our lives to live our lives for Him. But people with the scales over their eyes they dont see where anything is wrong. Thats where the chastisement comes in but only if they can and are willing to opne their hearts to what God is leading them and telling them.
     

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