Cheap Grace

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by bound, Mar 12, 2007.

  1. bound

    bound
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    Grace and Peace,

    I was visiting a Baptist Church recently, because I'm still looking for one that actually preaches the Gospel, and heard another 'feel-good' service. Afterwhich I spoke to the Paster about some points he made and he told me matter-of-factly that sinning doesn't matter, period. Pursuing a moral life in obedience with the Bible was 'our hang-up not God's' and we need to learn to accept ourselves 'as we are' because God already has.

    I listened to the man and later reflected on what he said and I couldn't stop hearing Paul's 1st Epistle to the Corinthians "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived..." (1 Cor 6:9).

    Am I wrong to be upset or turned-off by this Paster? Help me out?

    Contining my search for a Church... :(
     
  2. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4
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    Sounds like an Emerging Church. But that Pastor will have to answer for his failure to follow the command in 2 Tim 4. In fact it calls his salvation into question. We cannot be saved by avoiding sin. It must always be recognized, repented of, and we must to this on our knees if not prostrte before the cross trusting in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. No other way to heaven.
     
  3. PJ

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    No, not wrong at all. Sounds like you should continue searching.
     
  4. mcdirector

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    mmmmmm God does accept us as we are, when we recognize ourselves for the filthy rotten sinners that we are and come to Him in repentance begging for forgiveness.

    Think I'd skip right over this one and move on to the next.
     
  5. James_Newman

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    I couldn't find that verse, maybe you could give me a reference.
     
  6. mcdirector

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    *sigh*

    please take what I said in light of the OP.

    The OP sounded very much like what happens in so many churches -- you don't have to repent, you don't have to change, continue living in your sin BECAUSE God will take you just as you are. Nothing is required on your part. Well, something is required on our part. I had to recognize that I was in need of a Saviour. That I was indeed sinful, that following Jesus was the pursuit of a Holy lifestyle -- again, I'm trying to tie this in to the OP.

    When the Lutherans were going through their last struggle, I heard one of their theologeons interviewed. He said that we (man) have tried to make it about two gospels. One is that God will take us as we are and that we don't have to change. We can continue to live our lives as if God never entered it. This is erroneous. The other is that God takes us where we are, but we do have to change. That's what I meant. Sorry for the clumsy wording.
     
    #6 mcdirector, Mar 12, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2007
  7. James_Newman

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    Bound, I think the man is correct in that we do not get cleaned up to go to God. Jesus died for our sins while we were yet sinners. Nobody has to stop sinning to be saved, they only have to believe on Him. But after salvation, we have a calling, and we may fall short of that calling. Paul's admonition about the wicked not inheritting the kingdom is directed to believers.
     
  8. DavidH

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    For grace to be cheap, it ceases to be grace because it has had a price tag put on it.
    Sounds to me the pastor is confident that his teaching and preaching will keep his flock healthy enough spiritually to overcome sin, flesh and the devil without putting them under condemnation. Do you want a preacher who keeps you guilty or one who preaches that you have to power to walk in the glorious libery of children of God? Which sin didn't Christ pay for?
    One of the first things a pastor learns is if he can keep his people feeling guilty they will always come back. It's one of the little secrets pastors use.
    I have no way of knowing this pastors heart condition or his personal convictions, but on the surface he seems to be one who understands the power of God to transform lives through truths, rather than one who seeks to keep his flock guilty and in bondage.
     
  9. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4
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    It is a false notion that we only have to believe on him. Many will say Lord have I not doen this and tht in your name. The rich ruler in Luke 19 believed on him and desired salvation. But the differnce is the refusal to submit to God as God who is soverign, has the right and authority to judge us, who sets the standard for holy and moral living.

    People believe in God, people want salvation, but some people will not submit to God as God. Therefore they will die. Everyone believes in God. (no such thing as an atheist) but not every one will submit to God as God. And die they will.
     
  10. tinytim

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    Man, I've been doing it wrong all along..
    You make em feel guilty all the time...

    You mean it really works???!!!

    Think I'll pass... it is not my job to convict of sin.. That is the Holy Ghost's job. My job is to preach the word.
    And I have found out that when I do that, the Holy Ghost convicts, people repent, people are changed, and they grow into mature Christians that can think for themselves instead of relying on the pastor to spoon feed them for the rest of their lives.

    Man, I can't believe I have been preaching for over 10 yrs now, and just learned that if ya make em feel guilty all the time they will come.

    I always thought if you "Build it, they will come" (a strong church)

    But I could be wrong.

    That said, I would disagree with the pastor in the OP.
    Sin does matter.
     
  11. bound

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    Grace and Peace DavidH,

    Okay. This might be helpful for me because you sound similar to this paster in that you appear to create a dualism between obedience and rebellion to the Gospel and argue that the sinners are actually righteous because they trust that their sins are covered by Christ's blood.

    This is very much his philosophy. He told me sinning is our hang up not God's and I cringed at the thought that grace is no longer thought to change the faithful into salt and light. That is what I mean by 'Cheap' Grace... not that it is purchased at a price even-though it was... but that it isn't powerless to give us the strength (i.e. grace) to shake the bondage of sin and walk in the freedom (righteousness) of Children of God. I don't believe that such makes us 'sinless' but aware of our sin and adverse towards it.

    The acceptance of our nature being in bondage to sin appears to be at odds with our new life in the spirit. I got the impression from this paster and from your reply that you are both teaching a kind of Humanism (i.e. accepting our fallen nature as well the only state we are called to have). I'm not sure that this is the Gospel taught by Paul so I really have an issue with it unless I can understand it better.

    Would you mind offer some more insight?

    Thanks.
     
  12. AAA

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    GOD's GRACE..Titus 2:11-14.

    I think that your concern with the pastor is very valid.

    "unless you repent you shall not enter/see the kingdom of GOD.-JESUS.

    "Be Holy", because I am HOLY-GOD

    "It is NOT the hearers of the word that will be justified, but the DOERS." When ever we are saved, it is by GRACE, and if we are saved by GRACE we have the same nature as HE has, and we will do HIS will and not our will (sin).

    Paul said: "Should we go on sinning that grace may abound? GOD forbid."

    If a so-called christian practices sin, Have they truely repented?...

    The CHEAP grace is not the same as the grace taught in the Bible..

    CHEAP GRACE....False doctrine....
    Teaches us to use grace as a license to sin (Say: YES to Sin and NO to Godliness), because GOD will forgive you....

    GOD's GRACE....TITUS 2:11-14...
    11. For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
    12. It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,
    13. while we wait for the blessed hopeā€”the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
    14. who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

    Did you notice the GRACE of GOD teaches us to say: "NO" to ungodliness?

    God's grace is TRUE GRACE...

    :godisgood:
     
    #12 AAA, Mar 12, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2007
  13. pinoybaptist

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    Goodness, this is a Baptist board. As diverse an opinion as Baptists can be.

    Here's what the OP said the Pastor said:

    Here's what Paul said:

    What then, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound ?

    Here's what Jesus said to the woman:

    Go, and sin no more.

    Paul again: let him who stole, steal no more.

    Sure, unavoidably we might fall into sin.

    But to deliberately sin, to not avoid sinning, because that is a hang up ?

    That it doesn't matter to God if we sin and don't worry about it because Jesus paid for it anyway, and will continue to plead to the Father for the creature ?

    Excuse me, gotta go to the bathroom.
     
  14. Amy.G

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    Pinoy:
    :laugh: :laugh:

    Agreed.
     
  15. AAA

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    But should we go on sinning that grace may abound?
     
  16. James_Newman

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    Should we, or could we? Should we? God forbid! But does sinning negate grace? Paul himself said that where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.
     
  17. Brother Bob

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    To "repent" is to turn away from sin. If that is not stopping, please tell me why. I say a theif has to stop stealing or he will never be saved. To teach men and women that God will save them and they can just continue on with what you were doing, I mean is that your neighbors wife you are with? thats ok, carry on but the Lord will save you anyway. I don't believe a word of it.
     
    #17 Brother Bob, Mar 12, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2007
  18. donnA

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    I think you should keep searching.
     
  19. bound

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    Grace and Peace,

    You appear to be preaching a kind of antinomianism... which is what I fear the paster has also latched onto... a kind of Christian minimalism.

    Didn't Paul exhort Timothy to "Discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness" (1 Timothy 4:7). Paul wanted his son in the ministry to be a good servant of Jesus Christ as he taught others in the same way he had been taught, nourishing himself on the words of the faith and sound doctrine (v.6). The apostle knew by his own experience that it wouldn't be automatic, it wouldn't be easy, and it doesn't come quickly, especially in a place like Ephesus, which is not some unlike our own time. Timothy, like ourselves, need to discipline ourselves to be "the light of the world".

    Isn't our goal as Christians is to become like Christ? To know Him? How are we pursuing that goal living a life of sin? How is this being salt and light?

    I feel like this grasp for Christian minimalism has gravely distracted us from the Christian calling to be Christlike (i.e. examples) and we've actually 'demonized' those who seek to be 'athletes in Christ' like Paul himself. Where did we go wrong?

    Help me out!!!
     
    #19 bound, Mar 12, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2007
  20. bapmom

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    Hi bound! Remember me? Haven't seen ya much lately, but it's good to talk with you again!

    Did you ask the pastor further about your concerns? Did you ask him to clarify things for you? Perhaps you are right. I know such a statement as you refer to would have caused me to question him more. Does he really think that God does not care how we act at all? Or was he referring to the Biblical method of salvation?

    I cannot remember where you are, but perhaps you could pm me your general location and I could try and find a church in your area which you might find suitable? Ive got some contacts.
     

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