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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Paul3144, May 18, 2012.
I'm reminded of the professor years ago that said, "The Maniac of Gadara was once a new born child that had to be born again because the first birth didn't complete the work."
Personally, whether beyond "normal" or not, I’d of nipped that totally unacceptable behavior in the bud, therefore it would have never had the chance to "escalate" into what it did!
If that's your opinion, you haven't had experience dealing with this type of behavior.
You may be able to find ways to help control the behavior and keep others safe, but there's no way another human can heal the heart/mind of another human, child or adult, who either cannot or is unwilling to change.
Usually this type of behavior cannot be officially diagnosed in a child because of the serious repercussions. There are parents of children like this out there who are alienated from almost all social interaction because they are perceived as poor parents because either the child's behavior is so outrageous or they child is sweet and charming in public, making the parents appear cruel and crazy to others because of the strict rules and precautions they must take to keep others safe from the psychopathic child.
So here's a scenario, constructed from a whole lot of experience and interaction with a number of parents of children...children who exhibit these behaviors.
Reality: Johnny calmly told his therapist that he wanted to stab relative XXX to death and laid out the exact place where he *almost* did so, but his plan was foiled because he wanted to stab her in the back and she turned around.
What others see: Horrible parents will not let Johnny be around XXX and she misses him so terribly much.
Reality: Johnny molested another child, but nobody charged him with a crime because he was so charming, young, and there were no witnesses. Johnny admits his crime in private and smiles when his shocked family reports the crime to authorities and finds out there will be no criminal consequences. He becomes euphoric when his family is then investigated because "something must have happened for your child to behave this way."
What others see: Controlling, weird parents who are possibly abusive because they keep Johnny away from other children except under their direct supervision. Their suspicions of abuse are only made stronger when they hear that Johnny's parents are under investigation by government officials.
Reality: Johnny sees demonic visions and hears voices, but he didn't reveal this for years. After being evaluated by numerous doctors, the parents try different medications and different levels until the visual and auditory hallucinations are under control.
What others see: These parents put this sweet, mannerly child on drugs so they wouldn't have to deal with "boys being boys." They are now thoroughly convinced that the parents are abusive.
Reality: Johnny has been raised in a Christian family. He secretly does not believe, but keeps it hidden because religion gets him treats at church and helps promote his image of being a good kid. At home, he is often seen reading his Bible, but his parents one day realize that whenever he seems to be quietly reading the Bible, his little brother is screaming. When a security camera is installed, Johnny is seen beating on his baby brother and then running over the couch and opening his Bible, appearing calm and quietly comments that he hopes his brother is okay. When he is told about the security camera, he puts his Bible away and never opens it again.
What others see: This child doesn't care about God or read his Bible. He must not be being raised in a Christian home. This must be the root of the family's problems.
Reality: Johnny's parents have done everything under the sun to help heal their child. They have tried every parenting method available, prayed often, sought the advice of pastors, therapists, psychologists, and read massive amounts of literature in an effort to understand Johnny. No matter what, Johnny only changes superficially. When left unsupervised for any amount of time or when pushed, the lack of change becomes painfully obvious. Any positive behavior is simply a manipulation method used to get what he wants, whether it is more trust, a new toy, or simply to appear charming to others outside of the home. He tells his parents that he will behave if he is motivated to do so with money or gifts. When the parents refuse to do so, he may respond with a smile and a request to draw a picture, but the picture will be of a murder scene.
The true reality is that Johnny is not going to helped until or unless he realizes his need for help. However, his MENTAL ILLNESS likely prevents him from realizing it. In his mind, he is quite perfect and it is the others around him that need to change.
Now Johnny grows up and goes out on his own. His parents can't keep others safe from him anymore and have no legal right to do so since he is an adult. They have fought for help his entire childhood, but had no support system, nobody else believed there was a problem except Johnny's therapist and psychologist, but his hands were tied because the medical community doesn't want to "label" kids and cannot saddle them with such a severe diagnosis until adulthood, at which time, Johnny must go on his own to get diagnosed. Since he believes he is perfect, he does not do this.
Johnny goes out into the world, is seen as a friendly neighbor who is very well mannered, then one day the neighbors are shocked and appalled to find out he has been spending his evenings stabbing people to death for the past 15 years.
What others see: This kid had terrible parents. They should have known something was wrong and gotten him the help he needed so this could have been prevented. The parents should never have been allowed to have children and it's sheer luck that their 2 other children turned out great, have a strong faith in God, and are valued in their community.
You can't love or hug sociopathic behavior out of someone. You can't spank it out of a child. In fact, some of them take pride in being able to endure consequences and even use it to boost their inner belief that they are martyrs under tyranny and one day when they are older, they, in their infinite wisdom, will outsmart the stupid people who tried to punish them needlessly and get back at them one way or another. Some don't even wait that long. (ever notice we have kids killing younger siblings over things like the sibling taking a toy, interrupting a game, or simply getting on their nerves? Stab 'em, shoot 'em, hang 'em, kids are killing kids and everyone keeps blaming THE PARENTS, probably the same type who don't believe mental illness is real)
And when the surrounding world reacts to it by blaming the parent or forcing them to live in fear of constant government investigations because others don't GET IT and don't take the time to try to see what's going on with the family, let alone help them, it causes a terrible burden on those families and alienates them from exactly what might help them the most...the support and care of their family, friends, and community. Instead, they become scared and isolated, often afraid to seek help because of common misconceptions or ignorance about children with this disorder. (or actually the mixture of disorders assigned the child since that one cannot be given)
It's a scary world we live in, made scarier when the people who most need help become the most rejected and least helped, being told to just spank the kid or get right with God and all will be well and if it's not, then they must be doing something wrong.
I'm sure the medical community and a HOST of parents, especially parents who adopted older kids, would just LOVE to know how you "nip it in the bud" when their kid is a psychopath.
I'm sure it would pay handsomely and even if not, you would be doing the world a favor by sharing your knowledge.
Take a look at this article:
The documentary is "Child of Rage." It is about a six year old.
Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.
Foolishness [is] bound in the heart of a child; [but] the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left [to himself] bringeth his mother to shame.
Now that your retired........
You can sit back and quote Scripture and spout of simplistic theology.
But what if you are one of those parents who as far as they know had done everything right with their child, and the child still turns out ungodly. Is it always the problem of the parent? Is it that simplistic?
Repent, forsake, drugs mask sin. It'll show up sooner or later so I thought I'd get a jump on things....... :tonofbricks:
For those believers who really trust the Lord, scripture is what he or she lives by.
I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.
The answer is yes based on what you said. You said this;
"But what if you are one of those parents who as far as they know had done everything right with their child, and the child still turns out ungodly"
In such a case the parent was relying on their own understanding and yes they are responsible. Doing all we know is just another excuse for not knowing what we are to do.
However for the parent that relies on God's word;
Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it.
It is nice to have a simplistic view of Scripture. The above I see as a general principle, not an absolute promise with no exceptions in life. You are naive if you believe that. There are many Godly parents who for some reason or another have had a child go astray. To stigmatize them like this is to show your own callousness and insensitivity toward others.
A friend of ours was a foster mom for many years. She adopted 6 children for which she had cared since birth. The birth mom for these 6 children drank alcohol during pregnancy, among other things, and the babies had all kinds of problems from it.
Our friend reared the kids the same way, in a Christian home, took them to church, reared them with lots of love, discipline, etc. from BIRTH. One of these children tried to kill her. She did all kinds of "crazy" things, as a direct result of mental illness from what went into her little body while in utero. The young lady ended up in an institution because she was such a danger to the rest of the family.
The adoptive mom did not sin in rearing these children. This was not a case of "repent and be healed."
Unborn babies exposed to certain drugs, and young children exposed to certain drugs, neglect, or abuse, will experience major brain damage that results in all sorts of "unnatural" behavior. It happens.
Do you have scripture to back this claim of yours up that their behavior was not from their own willful hearts but because of brain damage?
When the tantrums started in our family I pulled out the recorder and she got recorded. A few minutes later I played it back. That only happened twice before it ceased. She is now 22 and hates winers.
I grew up with a kid like this, he lived just behind our house. This kid was pure evil, but all the parents thought he was a regular kid. He knew when and how to act. But all of the kids in our neighborhood knew he was evil and were terrified of him.
This kid loved to inflict pain and torture. We found a cat in our back yard that was literally full of pellets from a pellet gun. I am not talking of one or two pellets, this cat probably had 100 pellets in him or more. The parents did not know who did this, but all us kids did.
This kid always had weapons, he loved big knives especially.
This guy murdered several people when he was in his early 20s, he is in prison today, and I hope they keep him there.
The rest of his family was normal. His sister used to come over and babysit us, cook us meals, she was an angel.
Really Gina?! My own childhood makes the kid's anger issues in the OP seem mild in comparison. As a toddler I wasn't allowed to play with the other children because of my fighting. At the age of 4 to give me a vacination Airforce doctors had to call 3 more adults to hold me down and I injured two of them by biting and scratching. My mother had to forcefully drag me to my first day at kindergarten and when teachers tried to help her when bringing me through the door I severely bit one of them too. I was beaten and would smile while that happened, molested along with my sister, and my eyes would litterally turn red when I got angry. That's just the beginning of my story and I have no desire to spill my guts here, but this is say that I overcame it all, completely, and I have a good understanding of what it took.
You obviously take some of this personal too, but you shouldn't be judging my abilities according to yours. I said, "personally" not how Gina should handle things.
You stick to your claims of demons, psychologists, worries about government interventions and needs for medications and I'll stick to what I know about how these problems typically arise and how they can be dealt with. Correctly given loving discipline!
I always find it interesting when Christians reject God prescription for discipline as being able to be carried out in a loving manner. Just because scripture speaks of the rod, and by the way that Hebrew word is closer to a club then a switch, does not mean that proper physical discipline cannot be administered in a proper and loving manner. While drugs may make life easier they do not train up a child contrary to doing it God's way nor do they express proper love based on the bible.
Not wanting to derail the thread at all, but to me the article demonstrated the depravity of the human heart.
That that depravity manifests itself in young children, and those young children are capable of doing very evil things and understanding exactly what they are doing.
It demonstrates what we refer to as "an age of accountability."
The secular psychiatrist will say that he has mental problems and has need of medication. Many if not most say that he needs to face his crimes, his sin, and repent of the wrong that he is doing.
There are also other lessons to learn. We don't know what went on inside of the walls of that family.
I know a little of the family history, I was friends with two brothers and the sister. The father was an alcoholic and used to beat the kids. But the other kids were pretty normal, maybe a little more quick-tempered than other kids, but normal. Overall they were nice people.
This fellow was different. He had a look in his eyes I cannot describe. This guy loved evil. When we saw this fellow coming, all the kids would take off. You NEVER wanted to be alone with him. In numbers you might be ok.
I searched and found him online. This is the fellow.
If you click on the picture you will see him. He looks pretty harmless now, but trust me, he's not. He was a big guy, much bigger than the rest of us. He was a strange and deranged person.
I don't know the details of his murders, I moved away when I was 10 years old. Family members told me about his arrest. I wasn't surprised at all. This fellow is about 6 years older than me. So, he was a young teen when I knew him, I was still a little kid.
You dealt with YOURSELF, yet the claim is that the PARENT is to blame for the child.
Sometimes they are, but often they're not.
You sound like someone who *may* have had something called "reactive attachment disorder." It can happen in kids who have experienced trauma or neglect, sometimes even as an infant and it may even start prior to birth when the brain is developing and connections aren't properly formed. Sometimes kids like this heal, sometimes they do not, even when raised by the most dedicated, loving, Christian parents out there.
Because you were a horribly behaved kid who, by your own claims, turned out okay, it doesn't mean that you alone have all the answers, especially not when there are tons of adoptive parents, step parents, and even some birth parents with children who did not end up living up to society's concepts of normal.
So no, you still can't judge the rest based on you being a child like that.
You may have raised a child that healed, but that doesn't make you a majority and if that is the case and you are now proclaiming it as absolute truth that you can discipline this out of a child, then you are putting yourself in a position of condescending authority unless you have met with a number of parents whose children have psychopathic/sociopathic/reactive attachment behaviors and followed their cases to adulthood.
So yes, if you truly believe you have the truth on this and you know how to "nip it in the bud," SHARE IT.
You have an obligation to do so. There are a lot of hurting kids and parents/caregivers out there.
There's no way you can believe it is right to claim you have the solution to this, yet refuse to give it.
So again, please share. How do you nip it in the bud? Type it all out, email it if you have to, and I can be out there sharing it with a number of adoptive parents and professionals as soon as you do. Maybe it will help one of them, even if I read it and don't believe it. Trust me, I WILL share it. You can also include your story and I'll share it anonymously. I'm totally serious about this. So many cannot get an honest answer out of their kids concerning why they act like they act. If your story helps even one person, it will have been worth it.