Choice 'A' or Choice 'A', Which will it be?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by humblethinker, May 11, 2011.

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  1. humblethinker

    humblethinker
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  2. humblethinker

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    Wath the video here.


    Calvinist God: “You may choose between (a) or (a), and you're free to choose whichever is most compatible and consistent with your nature, but you're not free to abstain from choosing, and the choice that you make, will ultimately be YOUR choice. So what's your choice?”

    Person: “I guess I choose (a).”

    C God: “Great. Now I will reveal the gracious gift or perhaps, just punishment for choosing (a).”

    Person: “Whoa…wait...what?”

    C God: “You made your choice! YOU chose it out of your own free agency!”

    Person: “Wait! All I had was choice (a). What other choice COULD I make?”

    C God: “What choice DID you make?

    Person: “I chose (a).”

    C God: “Exactly!”

    Person: “But what choice did I HAVE?”

    C God: “Apparently, the choice that you MADE.”

    Person: “But it wasn’t MY choice.”

    C God: “Sure it was.”

    Person: “But I couldn’t choose anything OTHER THAN (a), so how was that MY choice?”

    C God: “You admitted it yourself. You chose (a). You said so yourself.”

    Person: “Ok, I chose it, but I didn’t have any OTHER choice.

    C God: “Exactly! Finally you admit it.”

    Person: “But my choice wasn’t REALLY a choice, since I had no OTHER choice.”

    C God: “Would you like to know the ramifications of your choice?”

    Person: “Not really.”

    C God: “I chose to be gracious towards you.”

    Person: “You did?”

    C God: “I did.”

    Person: “Wait! See, YOU’RE the One who did the choosing.”

    C God: “I never said that I didn’t make a choice. I simply said that you had a choice, and YOU made your choice.”

    Person: “Well, I guess it turned out ok, so I’m happy.”

    C God: “Good. I’m glad that you’re happy.”

    Person: “What about these others?”

    C God: “I chose something different.”

    Person: “Are they happy with THEIR choice?”

    C God: “No.”


    Person: “Well…they made their choice. They should just accept that.”

    Calvinist God: “Exactly!”

    *This can be found here. The above attributed to Richard Coords.
     
    #2 humblethinker, May 11, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 11, 2011
  3. humblethinker

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    I don't mean to caricature or create a strawman. I'm interested in hearing why this dialogue is not representative of Calvinism's treatment of choice/free will.
     
  4. jbh28

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    I read your last post, so I'll answer. Here lies the problem. You act as if the choices are behind a door and unknown. That's not true. The choice is very known. You were correct that we are able to choose that which is consistent with our nature. No one outside of the grace of God will ever choose God. Hey will choose exactly what he wants to choose and that's not God but his own self.
    This would never happen. The unsaved choose their sin and know exactly what it is.
     
  5. humblethinker

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    1) Since I am not sure I am thinking about the same thing you are, and since you say the choice is very known, can you tell me what the choice is between then?
    2) Would you say that the choice(s) available can be contrary to the choice God already made?


    It seems that Cals would say that God does not ever give man the ability to choose to believe in Him while simultaneously making available the contrary choice of not believing in Him. Would you say that God does make those options available? If He does, then does God enable man to choose either? I'm not making an accusation, I'm just seeking clarification.

    Ok, I have no problem with that... (although we might disagree on the more precise meaning of that statement.)

    Ok... Your answer to question 1) and 2) will inform my understanding of your statement here.

    Are you saying this would never happen because the unsaved would at some point in their life have the God given opportunity to choose (a) or (b), that it would never be (a) or (a)? But that, regardless of either scenario man would choose (a)?
    (I don't think you are saying that but please clarify.)


    It seems, unless we change the definition of the word 'choice', that it's inherent meaning is to choose one option that is contrary, in some form, to the other option. Would you agree with this?
     
  6. convicted1

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    I guess because in the Calvinist's model of salvation, one does not have a choice. God spurs them out of the shoot, runs up from behind them, hogties them, and gives them salvation!! J/K my DoG Brethern.

    I guess the reason why this isn't accurate is because, in the Calvinist's model, free will doesn't exist. They are effectually called by God, and will not resist, henceforth, they had no other "choice", but to come to Him and be saved!! Or at least this is what I have gleaned from my DoG Brethern.
     
  7. Iconoclast

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    hello Willis,
    [QUOTEI guess the reason why this isn't accurate is because, in the Calvinist's model, free will doesn't exist.][/QUOTE]
    free will does not exist.....self will does.....it is bound by the persons nature.

    In the day of Noah.....Noah did not keep the ungodly out of the Ark.....they did not will to go in it.

    [QUOTEThey are effectually called by God][/QUOTE]

    Yes They Are!
    No, because we are "even as others " we do resist for awhile!

    However.....The Spirit gives a new heart and we are made willing,by God's mercy and love! That is what makes the call effectual we believe, we repent, we exercise faith, because God works in us
    [/COLOR]
    Others always resist Acts7:51.....they are not the object of the effectual call, otherwise we could not refer to this call as effectual!
    All men are responsible to keep God's law perfectly.They do not want to.

    When the Spirit of God shows you your sin,and gives you a new heart to welcome the truth.....there really is not any choice to be made...it is like bringing a hungry person to a fully paid buffet.....he who is thirsty,drink, he who is hungry, eat........The Spirit creates the hunger,and desire...otherwise we would go on feeding with the swine like the prodigal son....
    When the Spirit restored a right mind to him....he responded to the Fathers love drawing him home....

    .Remember Willis.....the Spirits work, convicting , and drawing are unseen and internal.....so it looks like the prodigal did it all by himself. But Jesus taught the work of the Spirit is unseen, like the wind.

    This is where non cals go off....they say the prodigal just figured it out,all by himself....and he 'accepted Jesus" He believed.....

    He does believe,and so do we....but did we do it all by ourself, or did God do it? I heard election described this way;

    Did God save you, or did you save yourself?
    God saved me

    Did he save you on purpose, or was it an accident?
    he saved me on purpose!

    That is the doctrine of election.:applause:
     
  8. humblethinker

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    I don't think this is accurate. Does anyone on this board think that the prodigal figured it out by himself? Does anyone think that they by themselves 'figured it out'? You seem to propose a false dilemma wherein there are no possible options except for the ones you allow in the construct of your claim.
     
  9. Winman

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    Iconoclast said;

    I would like to know where you got this little tidbit of information. How do you know what happened? For all we know, perhaps hundreds of people Noah had preached to realized his prophecy was coming true and ran to the ark. There might have been hundreds, if not thousands beating on the ark trying to get in.
     
  10. Winman

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    No, the words of the prodigal showed he had knowledge of his father.

    Luke 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
    18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
    19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
    20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

    Several things are shown here. First, the prodigal son was able to realize his lost condition as the scripture says he "came to himself". Second, he already had a knowledge of his father, and while he did not expect to be accepted back as a son, he believed if he confessed his sin and asked forgiveness, his father would be merciful and accept him as a servant. How do I know that? Because he came. If he did not believe and have some hope his father would forgive him, he would not have returned to his father. His father was far more merciful and gracious than he expected.

    No one can possibly believe in Jesus if they have never heard of him.

    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    Paul shows it is impossible to have faith in Jesus unless you have heard of him. Paul also shows the means of hearing and faith, preaching.

    Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Paul says faith comes by hearing the word of God. He does not mention regeneration here or anywhere else in all of scripture as a requirement for faith, only that a man must hear of Jesus to have faith in him.

    John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    Jesus shows how a man comes to him, they must hear and learn from the Father. This is in perfect agreement with how Paul shows a man believes in Romans 10. Jesus does not say a person has to be supernaturally regenerated in order to come, he says they must hear and learn from the Father.

    Non-Cals like myself do not believe we have the ability to come to God apart from his grace. I personally believe that God's grace is his word the scriptures that we hear by reading or listening to preaching. We are taught by God who Jesus is and what he has done for us. We are taught if we come to Jesus and place our trust in him we will be saved. Without the grace of God in teaching us this, there is no way possible for any man to come to Christ.

    But nowhere in the scriptures does it ever remotely teach a man has to be supernaturally regenerated to believe. You cannot show even one verse of scripture to support that.
     
    #10 Winman, May 12, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 12, 2011
  11. Aaron

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    I don't know what Calvinists you're talking to, but Calvinists are true to the Scriptures. God has placed before men life and death. A man in his natural state will always choose death, because that is what he loves, and a man born of God will always choose life, because that is what he loves.
     
  12. Winman

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    That is a contradiction. Unless man truly has the freedom to choose between at least two available options, he has no choice. That is the point of the video, and it is correct.

    Someone here said they can choose to fly. That is false, we are not able to fly of ourselves, it is not an available option. You may want to fly, but you cannot choose to fly. Only if you have the ability to fly can you choose to fly or not.
     
  13. Iconoclast

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    Winman,
    from the scripture....


    God said what would happen..because he ordained it to happen just the way it did.....just like mt7:21-24 will happen

    Even if they did, they are in hell now. God shut the door on the Ark.
    For wicked people to realize judgement is coming....does not give them grace to repent....

    The rich man in hell realized alot ,,,after the fact lk16
     
  14. Aaron

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    You just make things up. The fact that life and death is placed before a man does not presume any kind of freedom of choice. A man will reveal his nature by his choice, and men love death.

    God has placed before men a and b, but men of one nature will choose a, and men of another nature will choose b.

    You may place a mudhole and a bucket of pearls before a pig, and the pig will always choose the mudhole. A dog will always return to its vomit.

    These extraneous "dialogues" and "analogies" that you all come up with are just a bunch hooey. God has already given us analogies. He uses such similies and metaphors as sheep and goats, serpents and doves, bread and wine, dogs and swine, marriage and birth, etc.

    Now, come up with a reasonable analogy using any of those, and you'll find you cannot refute the assertions of Calvinism.
     
  15. Iconoclast

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    Hello HT,

    You will hear it preached the way I said 90% of the time.
    False dilema? How do you see the prodigal son?

    give your view HT,
     
  16. Winman

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    Giv
    Give me a break, you cannot be FREE and a SLAVE at the same time! That is an absolute contradiction that only a Calvinist could believe. If you are enslaved by your nature and can only rebel against God, then you have no choice. And... if you are irresistably saved and cannot finally rebel against God you have no choice.

    This is the problem of non-Cals like myself debating with Calvinists. A person cannot debate a Calvinist with logic, because Calvinism consists of illogical views. A Calvinist can say a person is Free and a Slave at the same time. Others outside Calvinism cannot do this.

    Calvinism is a "heads I win, tails you lose" theology. For instance, a Calvinist will say God decrees all events whatsoever that happen in time, yet God does not decree sinful events. This is an absolute contradiction, yet a Calvinist can believe it. If I claim your doctrine makes God the author of sin, you will claim your doctrine does not teach that, which is correct. If I then say you agree that men are acting independently of God, you will disagree and say you believe God decrees all events. There is no way to argue with a philosophy like this, it cannot be falsified. So, yes, you are correct, Calvinism cannot be refuted, but not because it is correct, but because it cannot be falsified.

    Nevermind that it is utterly illogical.

    What I am always amazed at is how very intelligent, otherwise rational people can believe such obvious contradictions as truth.
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    Winman,
    You do not see it, does not translate to.....obvious contradictions.

    5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

    8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
    looks supernatural here!
     
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Nevermind that it is utterly illogical.

    Thank you Mr Spock:laugh:

    Seriously, remember that with God you are on a Spiritual plane....just bear that in mind.:smilewinkgrin:
     
  19. Winman

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    Believeing and being born again are not the same. Believeing is man's part in salvation, being regenerated or born again is God's part.

    Jn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming and now is, when THE DEAD SHALL HEAR the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear SHALL live.

    Jesus knows correct doctrine. He did not say the living shall hear his voice, he said THE DEAD SHALL HEAR.

    Why can't you understand that? If Jesus wanted to say the living he could have said so. No, Jesus said exactly what he wanted to say, and he said the DEAD SHALL HEAR. So, obviously the dead can hear Jesus.

    If the spiritually dead cannot hear Jesus, then how is he going to call them out of their graves? Are you going to argue that Jesus makes the spiritually dead spiritually alive so they can hear him? That is utter nonsense.

    John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the grave shall HEAR his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Again, Jesus here shows the spiritually DEAD can HEAR (and come forth)!!
     
  20. Iconoclast

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    You are jumping around mixing apples and oranges.

    No one believes in anniliationism....the dead will hear Jesus...not savingly
    but they will here Him say- depart from me you who work iniquity,I never at any time knew you.

    9But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD
     
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