Choice is a reality

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by ILUVLIGHT, Jan 18, 2004.

  1. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
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    Hi everyone;
    Dueteronomy 30 proves it. I read it today You who feel you don't have a choice should read it and then rethink your view.
    May God Bless
    ILUVLIGHT
     
  2. Yelsew

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    Choice is the only reality for man, without it Adam could not have sinned, and without it we cannot be saved!
     
  3. David Mark

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    Thank God for the easy choices. The choices that make way too much sense. The choices that are like a room full of doors and only one of them opens when I push or knock on it.

    I am the child, he is the Father and I seem unable to make the best choices for myself. I always need his help in choosing wisely.

    I've been in the wilderness. He has shown me what happens when I think I can always make choices without consulting him or seeking the one who is called: Counsellor.

    The wilderness gives me the hebbie jeebies. I don't like that place [​IMG] [​IMG]

    The very idea that he is Counsellor tells me that he should be consulted before making critical choices.

    Choice is a reality, but with a good Counsellor, wise choices can be made.

    Dave.
     
  4. Pastor Larry

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    I don't think anyone here is denying that. We believe that choice is a reality. But those choices are always made out of our nature. Man can make any choice that is consistent with his nature. Spiritually speaking, he can make any choice he wants to. But he has to want to. That is why the Bible says "Whosoever will may come." It does not omit the will. Those who "won't" don't come.
     
  5. massdak

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    yes choice is a reality but would you have chosen God if He hadn't drawn you to believe? your post should not read "choice is a reality" but does the Holy Spirit of God woo all people and some will succumb to the wooing and others will not for reasons that are deep seeded in each individual and settled there.
    do you believe that all people have the same coaxing from the Holy Spirit then other do? is some peoples sinful lifestyle more of a stumbling block toward salvation? what makes one sinner more apt to be humble and submit to obeying the gospel? is it because of family and friends that they taught you about God? were you raised to believe in God?
    and what about those who have never heard the gospel? do you believe God looked into the future and said well they wouldnt of believed the gospel anyway since they are of that tribe that for centurys practiced following idols.
     
  6. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi David Mark;
    John 6:44 the drawing of you to God is the help you need. It's the help we all get when we hear the gospel. It's the attraction of the soul to Christ. I believe we are all Drawn when we hear His word. Some come to him others don't but we are all drawn when we hear the gospel. Some even though have counsel to help make that decision still make the wrong choice. I feel it can only be that the attraction didn't overcome the love they already had. Some men love darkness more than the light. For me the choice between life and death is a no brainer. Sometimes a choice is offered many times before there is a response. It's almost as if with each offer, the offer it self becomes more attractive.
    May God Bless;
    Mike
     
  7. Pastor Larry

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    But is that what John 6:44 teaches? Christ says that those who are drawn will be raised up in the last day. Clearly, not all who hear the word are raised up in the last day. You have a leak somewhere in the middle of that verse that Christ knows nothing about.

    I agree that there is a drawing effect when the word is preached. But clearly, from the words that Christ uses, that is not what he is talking about here.
     
  8. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Massdak;
    Drawn yes I was. It's my understanding that no one can come to Him unless drawn by God. But being drawn is not a mandate to surrender.

    This verse below;
    Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Recently I have been watching a debate going on at another message board. The Calvinist there believe that the natural man cannot understand or even hear the things of God or know them in order to make a choice. This verse above clearly states that we are all able to see and understand.

    The thing I found interesting was the lack of proof the Calvinist had to defend there position of being unable to hear or understand.

    In order to have the choice of life or death that choice has to be presented, other wise the natural man will have a reasonable defense.

    Which is why I originally referenced Dueteronomy 30. The choice was laid before men and told by God to choose life that they may live. I would suppose that not all did choose life and they died.
    How can one be responsible for a choice that he isn't allowed to understand?.
    May God Bless;
    Mike
     
  9. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Pastor Larry;
    It's true about the word drawn but the verse says draw. I used the word drawn as past tense because I assumed that David Mark is saved;
    Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    It would appear to me that the word draw does not depict a definite happening, but one that is attempted. I don't believe that this verse predicts success, but only the possibility to be so.
    May god Bless;
    Mike
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    You should probably make sure you are defining understand and hear the same way. Spiritual understanding and spiritual hearing is something that the unregenerate cannot do. That is a lot different than being able to hear and understand the syntax of the verse, or the doctrines involved. Their lack of understanding and hearing is a lack of seeing teh need for it in their own lives. They reject it because they are trusting somethign else.

     
  11. Pastor Larry

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    ??????

    The promise that "I will reaise him up at the last day" is a divine prediction of success of the drawing of the Father. There is no one he draws in the "draw" of v. 44 who is not also raised up at the last day. This verse has no leaks. It is not an attempt. It is an assurance.
     
  12. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Pastor Larry;
    Pastor Larry this verse;

    Joh 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

    John tells of the Pharasee's being convicted by there own conscience. This I believe is what shows man a need for the truth of Salvation. The things of the spirit aren't understood without the Holy Spirit this is true. What brings man to repentance is conviction of his own conscience. Our belief in Christ starts with in our physcial selves.

    The word draw is not past tense. Drawn is past tense. This verse does not say that every one he draws will be raised. What it says is that we cannot be raised if we are not drawn. The assurance you see is not really there but in your preception.
    I disagree . It seems to me that you allow your preconceived notions to lure you away from truth. The verse in question is not assurance but a statement that no one will come to the Father who hasn't been drawn first. I'm sorry Pastor Larry but it does seem you are reading something that is clearly not there.
    Thankyou for your conversation. Have a good day and May God Bless

    Mike
     
  13. Pastor Larry

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    Whu did you choose that verse????? Why not these???

    John 8:43 43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
    John 8:47 47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

    REad the whole context. It is clear that the Jews heard and understood physically. BUt they rejected it, showing that they had no spiritual understanding.


    What??? That is not what it says at all. The verse says

    John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

    The verse most certainly does say that those whom the Father draws will be raised up at the last day and there is no way out. My perception is just fine. All we need to do is read the verse.

    The reason I said "drawn" past tense is because I was referring to someone already saved, therefore, already "drawn."

    I have been charged with this many times, but every effort to demonstrate it has fallen short.

    You are right about what the verse says. That is what I am saying. I am not reading anythign into it at all. What you are missing is what the verse says. It says, "no one can come unless the FAther draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."

    Who is the second "him" ... the one "raised up"?? IN context, it is the one whom the Father draws. Clearly, in the context plainly read, the ones whom the Father draws are the ones who are raised up. There is none drawn who are not raised up.

    Mike [/QB][/QUOTE]
     
  14. Me2

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    we discover the immediate reaction of being drawn of the father by the insemination of the fathers seed within the believer.

    this "seed" has within it both the law and the spirit of christ. (technically the beholder is already saved at this point because of the seeds very presence within us)

    the "seeds" component of the law immediately begins to draw the individual attention towards an attitude of being circumspect of the works of their flesh (unlawfullness). our strong desire is to please God. also the presence of the holy spirit exists and also the advisary, satan is present.
    technically we are in heaven. yet we are blind to our surroundings and its occupants because ,..geez were spermatazoa [​IMG]

    salvation is a process. it is THE choice of the father whether the new owner stops before being born-again (recognition of spirit within) or proceed to being born-again and reaches full maturity.(child,young man, and father)

    the Father chooses who is to fulfill the role of the vessels of wrath and mercy

    even though the spirit of Christ might be within the beholder. and its recognition of existence is not agreed upon by the owner. it is the choice of the father whether the owner recognizes this truth. (opens his eyes)

    however the timing and method of the father. the owner still is saved whether they recognize this truth or not.

    that is the reason that those living under the law are saved in the end (rom 9-11) they are eventually receive their sight. there are no aborted births in Gods family.

    heres something imteresting.

    my family are strong baptists. I had the ten commandments preached to me everyday for 25 years.with no real conviction or understanding of their meaning. I was saved when I was 25. It was not because the law was written on a wall on a plaque. or even read from a book.

    It was because the law became written on my "heart" via the insemination of Gods seed within me was I convicted and slowly received the understanding of their meaning. Now Jesus as christ. that came later after struggling with my carnal mindset to follow the law to please God.
    When I discovered i couldnt follow the law correctly.

    you see I didnt choose God. He chose me.
     
  15. Brutus

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    That's it in a nutshell!! God chose you,you did not choose Him!! As Spurgeon once said, "Can God make me become a Christian? I tell you yes, for herein rests the power of the gospel. It does not ask your consent; but gets it. It does not say, will you have it? But it makes you willing in the day of God's power... The gospel wants not your consent, it gets it. It knocks the enmity out of your heart. You say, I do not want to be saved; Christ says you shall be. He makes our will turn round, and then you cry, Lord save, or I perish!" :D :D
     
  16. David Mark

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  17. David Mark

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    :D :D
     
  18. massdak

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    yes that is an easy choice to pick between life a death, but that is not salvation by picking. it is faith in Christ and that is the type of belief that only God can show us by His word and His drawing, giving us the understanding to enable one to trust in Him.
     
  19. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Pastor Larry;
    It seems I'm delayed again and have time to answer your post.
    I feel I have upset you. I didn't mean to, but Judging by your conversation, you do seem a bit upset.
    Well here is why what you said about Jn 6:44 can't be.
    Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.'

    If your Ideas are correct then all men will be saved and we both know this isn't so. Yet you claim that if God draws us it is our assurance that we will be saved or raised up at the last day.
    I know that Calvinist claim that "all" doesn't mean "all" but I think that Hellen just proved that all does mean all and the term "all men" does mean all that there is. My question for you is why are you upset. I'm only trying to get you to see the truth of the gospel. Please don't be mad at me I'm only the messenger.
    I really didn't think anyone would pay much attention to this thread anyway.
    Until later.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  20. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Me2;
    I see what about the seed that fell on hard ground? Does this mean that seed was the Salvation of the one considered hard ground,but somehow hard ground's Salvation couldn't stand up to the testing of the sun and his Salvation died?
    . So what you're saying is that we can be drawn and not saved.
    I really hope you are kidding LOL. [​IMG]
    Yes He did first choose me but I also chose Him.
    May God Bless;
    Mike
     

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