Choice is a reality

ILUVLIGHT; If it was Christ's intention to save all men, how deplorably has He been disappointed!
For we have His own testimony that there is a lake burning with fire and brimstone, and into that pit of woe have been cast sone of the very persons who, according to your theory of universal redemption, were bought with His blood!

 

NOt at all. It takes an awful lot to get me upset. It rarely happens, especially on this board.

As several of us point out to Helen, "all" does mean all, but it has a context ... "all of what?" ...

Now let's look at the context of the verse you cite earlier. In that context, Greeks are wishing to see Jesus. Jesus refuses them. Why? Because when he is lifted up, then he will draw all unto himself. REmember that Christ did not say "all men." He said "all." The "men" is supplied by translators. What does he men by "all"? In teh context of Jews and Greeks, he clearly means "all nations" or "all types" of men, meaning not just the Jews.

What you have done is subjugate the clear teaching of 6:44 to the less clear teaching of 12:32. In reality, you should approach it the other way around. 6:44 has no other explanation that does not involve ripping the text apart. 12:32 does.

I am not upset in the least.

I know the truth of the gospel. I preach it regularly and spend my time in this forum defending it against those who would unintentionally minimize the grace and sovereignty of God. I am simply pointing out to you that there are clear explanations for things that you are confused by. When you look at the texts involved, and consider them in their context and in light of other Scripture, it becomes clear that our position is indeed the position taught by Scripture. To avoid our position, you must turn some Scriptureso on their heads and isolate them from their context and from other Scriptures, just as I have shown that you did with 6:44. My appeal is always to a clear, precise study of the Scriptures apart from theological presuppositions.

I am not really not upset in the least. I generally write short and to the point and it is impossible to convey voice tone and inflection in this forum. What may seem upset is really not at all. Don't sweat that ... just get in the word.

 

ILUVLIGHT; First of all, I did not call you a universalist! I simply stated that it was a theory of universal redemption. I had no intentions of bashing you, if that is what you thought then I appologize for that. And you're right, I should not have quoted Spurgeon with out using Scripture.
Brutus

 

according to your understanding of choice, is that it merits the way one can ascertain salvation, then it would mean Christ died for all sins except unbelief.
if Christ died that all could have a choice to believe, then by a persons own power they could choose salvation if everyone has an equal footing to know the truth with out deception. what choice did the apostle paul have? was he not on his way to do harm to the church? was lydia able to believe without God opening her heart? why are there no examples where God has worked on a persons heart like lydia and then they reject Him? maybe you should consider that God gives a person the ability to accept the real Jesus according to scripture. Did not Jesus speak in parables to certain people so they could not understand the true meaning?

 

The problem you might have with using spurgeon is that he didn't write the Bible nor any part of it. Maybe you could show scripture that clearly describes what you'd like to say. Believe me it has a much stronger effect.
May God Bless;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]Okay, how about this?

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

It is God who made me become a Christian.

 

yes that is an easy choice to pick between life a death, but that is not salvation by picking. it is faith in Christ and that is the type of belief that only God can show us by His word and His drawing, giving us the understanding to enable one to trust in Him. </font>[/QUOTE]I always get in over my head when I visit and speak this forum. I don't consider that a bad thing nor am I offended when challenged. It does show me that I have much more to learn. Honestly, I am a student of this topic and I never fail to be attracted to the discussions. It was this forum that pulled me into the Baptist Board first of all, all of my first posts are here.

Of all the forums here this seems to be the one where I feel that I have the most potential to offend someone or make someone scratch his head over my words. It's the forum that after I post or reply, I sometimes cringe to see how my words came across. Sometimes it's difficult not to "pick a side" that I'm not really truly qualified to support.

So, I am not above a productive and healthy retreat when I sense that I've gotten in too deep.

But, I'll be around because it's an immensely interesting topic.



Dave.

 

In Eph.2:1, Paul here identifies the state of believers prior to salvation as being "dead in trespasses and sins." Now we see in this context, being dead refers to the absence not of physical life but of spiritual life. Being spiritually dead renders one insensitive and unresponsive to the things of God,1Cor.2:14. Thus, the most important part of man's person,his eternal soul,is dead to the most vital part of life,God. So, yes, God can make me a Christian.

 

I really don't believe this verse is relevant to the Calvinist debate since it really is not about personal salvation but an address to His Chosen people Israel to be faithful to Him. Then again all people are called to embrace Christ and all are invited to Christ (Rev. 22:17) or as the Arminian or Barthian would say "choose". One however will not "choose" Christ unless enlightened and drawn by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5).

Augustine said it well,
Let us, then, understand the calling whereby they become elected,—not those who are elected because they have believed, but who are elected that they may believe. For the Lord Himself also sufficiently explains this calling when He says, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." For if they had been elected because they had believed, they themselves would certainly have first chosen Him by believing in Him, so that they should deserve to be elected. But He takes away this supposition altogether when He says "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.

 

Hi ILUVLIGHT,

Thanks for your very Christian response.


You asked

I am not certain what you mean. Salvation involves Justification, Sanctification and ultimately Glorification of the saint.

Mike, I don't think any Calvinist will disagree with you that we cannot be saved without faith. What Calvinists and non Calvinists disagree on is does Regeneration produce faith or does faith produce regeneration. I think Calvinists and non Calvinists can agree that you cannot separate Regeneration and Faith but we disagree over the process. Since Ephesians 2 clearly states we were made alive by the Holy Spirit and that faith is a gift of God, those who hold to the Reformed position (Regeneration produce faith) hold to the Biblical position.

Grace to you

 

Arminians don't disagree with this, or at least they shouldn't. I think we all agree that we must be drawn by the Holy Spirit before we can choose Christ.

What Augustine failed to recognize was that Jesus was speaking to his apostles. They were chosen by Jesus for a unique and special task. You can make the assumption that this also applies to the way in which Jesus chooses all of us who believe through their message, but it would just be your speculation at that point.