Choice or Chosen?

Unfortunately you had no box to check if we believe both things: that those who are saved are predestined to be saved AND I had a choice. So I could not vote, since I'm not undecided either.

 

Both. And NO I don't understand it. Scripture teaches both. You can easily get into the reformed rut by overanalyzing every verse on salvation. Just take the scripture to mean what it says.

Ephesians 1:4,5
2 Peter 3:9

 

do you believe that a person that is predestined would make a choice of not accepting Christ?

are you splitting hairs?

 

Of course I'm splitting hairs. It's what I do best. But this is a very important hair to split.

A person predestined to salvation makes a REAL choice to come to Christ. Up until the time they are brought to salvation, they make a real choice to reject him. When the times comes for them to leave their "child-of-wrath-hood" and enter their "child-of-God-hood", they look at the same two options they've always had--come to Christ or reject Him--and choose a different option than the one they have chosen up until then. Same REAL choice.

 

Of course I'm splitting hairs. It's what I do best. But this is a very important hair to split.

A person predestined to salvation makes a REAL choice to come to Christ. Up until the time they are brought to salvation, they make a real choice to reject him. When the times comes for them to leave their "child-of-wrath-hood" and enter their "child-of-God-hood", they look at the same two options they've always had--come to Christ or reject Him--and choose a different option than the one they have chosen up until then. Same REAL choice. </font>[/QUOTE]are you pro choice then? or free choice?

no free will but free choice correct.

 

I couldn't vote, either.

I see it as God knows who will accept Christ. That is the predestination, as far as I am concerned.

We are to share the gospel with everyone. God already knows, but we don't.

Am I contradicting myself? Not that I am aware of...but I'm sure it will be pointed out to me if I am.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Well, I'm certainly not pro-choice!

I believe we have free choice and free will as properly defined (meaning we have the freedom to chose what we want). I don't believe we have autonomy.

 

If you mean God knows because he looks into the future to see the decision man will make....then not only is that not how the Bible speaks of predestination/election but it also makes election absurd b/c man is the one who makes the decision, God just acknowledges it. That is NOT how the Bible speaks of foreknowledge or election.

If you mean God knows because he is the one who determined who would and who would not be saved, then yes, I agree.

 

This truly is a difficult topic, however, the answers come only from the Word of God. God gave His Only Son for all mankind, John 3:16. God knows who will accept, because He is all knowing, but He wants all to be saved, " not willing that any should perish" 2 Peter 3:9. If God only 'predestinates' a certain number of people, then why did He give His Son to die for all. That would be absurd. Predestination is in the context of those who have been saved will be predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Romans 8:29-30

 

If you read Romans 8:29-30 you will see that God DOES predestine just a certain number of people...a specific people. Those "conformed to his image" are believers...he predestines people to salvation.
So, maybe we need to understand the extent of the atonement in light of that truth.
(You are on the right track as to understanding their relationship)

 

The Spirit infuses spiritual life into the spiritually dead, enabling them to choose the free gift of eternal life.

I am with Dr. Bob on that point for sure. No man seeks after God.

The Natural man receives not the things of God

Plenty of scripture to back that one up, and I don't even have to overanalyze them, just take them at face value.

KJV Warrior,
Christ's payment is sufficient for all, it is efficient only for those who accept it as the payment for their sins. The Bible clearly teaches that I would not choose that on my own, it is not in man's nature to do so. The logical progression of saying that God is not willing that any should perish, and attaching that to soteriology and the sovereignty of God is that all will eventually come to repentance since God wills it. Clearly, there are people who will reject God, but his sovereignty cannot be impugned by saying that the "choice" was made against his will. If God chose to regenerate all, than all would be regenerated, that is not a view that aligns well with the scriptures.

 

I agree

 

Riddle me this.
If Adam and Eve were not dead in sin, why were they able to choose to reject God? Were they already alive or not? Why when given the chance did they not choose rightly?
God draws ALL men to Himself. They then accept or reject of their own free will.
Either they had a choice or they did'nt.
If there is no choice, then evangelism is a waste of time. They will get saved anyway.

 

This is the way I understand this:

I have a choice, but God knew what my choice would be even before I made it. God knows all!

Jesus died for my sins and I chose to accept Him as my Savior.

 

Wrong, Evangelism is the method God uses to bring people under the truth of the Word. We have been commanded to reach people, if you want to give up a direct command of God, be my guest, but I ususally like to do what the Bible says.

BTW, its not a riddle. God decreed the fall, or else he would cease to be God. (In a way that he is not responsible for the sin, or else he would not be Holy--That is the riddle) It is his nature to be a sovereign being, he cannot set that aside any more than I can choose to no longer be a human. In the same way, the Natural man recieves not the things of God. It is the work of the Spirit that enables men to choose God.

By the way, do you know who will choose God? Can you figure it out and only share the gospel with the elect? I haven't been able to figure that out yet, so I suppose I should just share it with everyone and (to use a good Baptist analogy) let the chips fall where they may. Salvation, even evangelism is pointless and fruitless without the work of the Spirit, to say otherwise is to go down a dangerous road following Hyles and the like.

God could have saved people with writing in the sky, through osmosis, by flaming wildebeests running through and proclaiming his Glory, but he didn't, he chose the foolishness of Preaching the Gospel. The responsibility to share is ours, the responsibility to save is his, not ours.

You cannot mitigate the responsibility of man, both ours to share the Gospel, and the hearers will be held responsible for their choice. That is a riddle,

2 cor 4:7 "But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us."

 

But, again, that is not how Scripture speaks of salvation.

It is a misunderstanding of "foreknowledge".

 

Without the Holy Spirit, I would not want Christ. Without the Holy Spirit, the greatest evangelist could not convince me that Jesus is Lord. God saved me while I was dead in my trespasses and sins. When I was "dead", I could not receive Jesus and I did not want to.

Election is not based upon God's foreseeing me choosing Christ, but on His sovereign love.