Choose which you believe to be right

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Wes Outwest, Feb 19, 2005.

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Choose which you believe to be right

  1. Calvinism

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  2. Non-Calvinism

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    0.0%
  1. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Calvinists say regeration must come before "born again" can occur in man.

    Regeneration is the Holy Spirit washing away the man's sin nature thus renewing man's spirit so that man can have faith in God. And those to whom this is done did nothing, not even hear the word of God, until the regeneration was complete, and that they were predicted from before the foundation of the world to receive this regeneration.


    Non Calvinists say,
    "Born again" is the man hearing the word of God and believing, which is a change of personal spiritual persuasion, thus enabling him to be washed clean of his sin nature through acknowledgement of ones sin, confession of sin that results in forgiveness and cleansing from all unrighteousness. The one hearing and believing is not necessarily predicted to do so from the foundation of the world.
     
  2. whatever

    whatever
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    This is not true, so your poll is fallacious. Regeneration is being born again. It is not something that occurs before being born again.
     
  3. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Whatever,
    Does regeneration require prior knowledge or belief in God on the part of the one being regenerated?
     
  4. johnp.

    johnp.
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  5. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Yes, your poll is inaccurate. Regeneration is being born again. Not all Calvinists believe it happens first. Some believe that the effectual call is an ability giving gift of God that leads to regeneration. That is a minority view to be sure. But your poll is inadequate.
     
  6. whatever

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    No. As Pastor Larry said, Calvinists disagree on how this works, but here's my view. One who is dead in his sins cannot believe until he is made alive. In other words, faith cannot precede regeneration. But, I don't believe that regeneration can precede faith either. (This will get me in trouble with some of my Calvinist brothers, but that's OK.) I think that both occur at the same instant, but belief will never occur without God's first moving to regenerate. There is no such thing as an unregenerate believer, and there is no such thing as a regenerate unbeliever.

    To summarize, logically regeneration must occur first, but chronologically both events occur at the same time.
     
  7. Soulman

    Soulman
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    Adam and Eve had a choice in the garden. Christ as second Adam restores our ability to choose as Adam did. God looked ahead and saw who would choose Him and pre-destined us based on His forknowledge.
     
  8. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Hello Soulman.

    That goes contrary to scripture, "ISA 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."
    It also goes contrary to the definition of predestine. Predestine means to destine before not to destine after. How can you predestine after? How can you destine after?
    Both elements of the word mean to fix before hand!

    johnp.
     
  9. ScottEmerson

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    That's foreknowledge - knowing the end from the begnining. He knows it. And predestine doesn't mean "forced a choice upon." If God knew what our end-decision was from the beginning, he could have, thus, predestined it. Your argument doesn't fly, johnp.
     
  10. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Hello ScottEmerson.

    Predestine means to destine, decree, determine, appoint, or settle beforehand : foreordain especially by divine decree or eternal purpose.
    He knew what we would choose because He destined, decreed, determined, appointed, and settle beforehand what we would choose. He foreordained especially by divine decree and eternal purpose.
    Matt 18:3 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

    Your argument is with the Lord.

    johnp.
     
  11. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    The operative words in Matthew 18:3 are "unless you change", thus placing the burden of change on us, not someone external to us.
     
  12. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Wes.

    Not Someone?
    Matt 18:3 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
    Jesus said, "Unless you change." That is all He said. "Unless you change."
    This still stands why don't you attempt to knock it over. He knew what we would choose because He destined, decreed, determined, appointed, and settle beforehand what we would choose. He foreordained especially by divine decree and eternal purpose. That is what 'predestine' means. :cool:

    johnp.
     
  13. Wes Outwest

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    Jesus has been giving the choices. Then he tells us that Unless we change we shall not enter the kingdom of God. It is we who must make the change to become as little children in order to enter the kingdom. Jesus did not say, 'unless you let me change you' but rather 'unless YOU change', so Johnp, there is nothing to knock over.

    I am not so sure that Jesus knew beforehand that any one individual would. But He himself established what it takes to enter the kingdom of God then told us UNLESS WE MEET THE STANDARD HE SET, we shall not enter the kingdom. Man looketh on the outside but God (Jesus) looketh on the heart. Jesus knew the heart condition of those who were hearing and told them that 'unless they change'...

    The onus is on man to do the changing! Hear the word, believe it, act on it...else the 'hearing of the word' is null and void!

    Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Faith without works is dead! But it is faith alone that makes man save-able...the works are evidence of the faith, and no one does works of faith without first having the faith!

    Likewise, if one who has been doing the works of the faith suddenly stops doing those works, you can bet the faith that spawned the works is also gone!

    By the way, that is one reason why I do not believe in general "predestination" for mankind. I do however believe in predestination based on the works of God. God established his work, God performed his work, now it is up to man to make the choices regarding the works that God has already finished!
     
  14. johnp.

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    Wes.

    Choices? Jesus had just reduced Peter by asking him why the Son of God should pay the Temple tax! Don't you check these scriptures out?
    That's right. JN 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. "
    Bold! That is adding to scripture.
    And that is adding to me.
    On the contrary. It is you that has been knocked over.
    Jesus said, "Unless you change." That is all He said. "Unless you change."
    This still stands why don't you attempt to knock it over. He knew what we would choose because He destined, decreed, determined, appointed, and settle beforehand what we would choose. He foreordained especially by divine decree and eternal purpose. That is what 'predestine' means.
    You must believe what the words say, you will have no excuse on that day. He has made it simple. He uses the word predestine because He meant to say predestine.
    Welcome to the Twilight Zone! Faith is a work of faith. You can't do a work of faith unless you have faith! :cool: Sounds very much like those dreamers who claim that time, space and matter came into existence at the same time!
    There is only one reason you do not believe in predestination and that is because you do not believe in the Word. You believe in yourself.

    johnp.
     
  15. Wes Outwest

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    It is interesting that scriptures tell us "My word sent forth does not return void". Meaning, as I understand it, that wherever God's Word goes, souls are transformed. So, it all comes back to "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Seems pretty clear that regeneration cometh by the word of God! So there is no difference in the positions of Calvinist's and Non-Calvinist's.

    That being true, Why don't we simply drop the titles and be just plain Christians? Why do we have to continuously and repeatedly subdivide ourselves into fragments of "Christianity"?
     
  16. Wes Outwest

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    Bold! That is adding to scripture.</font>[/QUOTE]I added nothing to scripture, Jesus declared it! UNLESS YOU CHANGE.... Seems pretty clear that God the Son is telling us to make the change that is necessary, or we will not be able to enter the kingdom of God!

    I trust what He said!
     
  17. Wes Outwest

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    And that is adding to me.</font>[/QUOTE]If the shoe fits, wear it!
     
  18. johnp.

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    This still stands why don't you attempt to knock it over. He knew what we would choose because He destined, decreed, determined, appointed, and settle beforehand what we would choose. He foreordained especially by divine decree and eternal purpose. That is what 'predestine' means.
    You must believe what the words say, you will have no excuse on that day. He has made it simple. He uses the word predestine because He meant to say predestine.

    johnp.
     
  19. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Wes.

    UNLESS YOU CHANGE is what He said. That is all He said. You add to scripture. God the Son is telling us to make the change that is necessary... He is saying nothing of the sort. Unless you change is what He said.

    johnp.
     
  20. Wes Outwest

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    On the contrary. It is you that has been knocked over. Jesus said, "Unless you change." That is all He said. "Unless you change." This still stands why don't you attempt to knock it over. He knew what we would choose because He destined, decreed, determined, appointed, and settle beforehand what we would choose. He foreordained especially by divine decree and eternal purpose. That is what 'predestine' means. You must believe what the words say, you will have no excuse on that day. He has made it simple. He uses the word predestine because He meant to say predestine.</font>[/QUOTE]I find nothing in the quoted scripture dealing with Predestination.
    IT STANDS!

    Welcome to the Twilight Zone! Faith is a work of faith. You can't do a work of faith unless you have faith! [Cool] Sounds very much like those dreamers who claim that time, space and matter came into existence at the same time!</font>[/QUOTE]FAITH is not a work, but that which ONE DOES while having FAITH, and in line with that FAITH are Deeds (Works) of FAITH. Nothing twilight about it. It has greater clarity than the nose on your face!

    There is only one reason you do not believe in predestination and that is because you do not believe in the Word. You believe in yourself.</font>[/QUOTE]There is another reason, YOU have not been able to SELL predestination! So I ain't buyin' it!
     

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