Featured Choosing between honoring my mother and submitting to my husband.

pk4life · Feb 10, 2014

Zaac said: ↑

I would personally leave the amount alone. :laugh: But I believe that husband and wife at this point need to sit her mama down and explain that while they appreciate what she was trying to do, it put them in a tough spot. If she was trying to help, she didn't as they had already planned to cover more pressing bills with the gift. She turned around and had them paying for something that should not have been a bill.

Keep her money out of your lives until she realizes that a gift does not give you a voice in what the core family does.
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I don't know, when I do the math they are up $500 lol...

but my full blown opinion MAY have some failings due to my experiences with a mother-in-law, that's why I try to keep it short and to the point.

Scarlett O. · Feb 10, 2014

My mom used to be an alcoholic to the point that she was not only deteriorating her insides, she was accidentally injuring herself on a regular basis. We were all waiting for the call that told us she'd finally did herself in.
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Thanks for this additional information. It's very telling.

My dear, your mother is still an alcoholic. She may not have had a drink in a long time, but true alcoholics and other addicts still struggle in some areas the rest of their lives - even though they may be recovered from using.

Maybe it's not with the actually substance, but the offshoot behaviors.

Did you know that it's common for alcoholics and even recovering/recovered ones to be manipulative, full of self-pity, blaming, controlling, and argumentative? They sometimes struggle here.

I mean we ALL do, but can you imagine how someone who is a current or former addict struggles even more?

Those are some common traits of a LOT of addicts - reformed or not.

I would find some professional help such as Al-Anon (for family members of users) to help you identify what's common to alcoholic and recovering/recovered alcoholic mothers of adult children. They could really help you.

There's got to one in your area.

The moral of the story is: defensive doesn't even begin to describe what my mom becomes when she thinks you think she's wrong. If you don't accept her justification she'll simply state that you're clearly wrong. If you continue she'll literally put her hand up and start making noises until you stop. If you continue at this point she'll bring the tears.
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This is classic manipulation. And she is continuing because it's working.

So if it comes down to me being uncomfortable with something and making my mom cry, crocodile tears or not, I'd rather be uncomfortable. I just don't know how to enact change without causing a lot of pain in the process. If she doesn't want to change should I be forcing the issue?
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Let me tell you something about change - of ANY kind. It's painful.

Here is who you need to change first - yourself. You need to work on your response system to your mother.

She KNOWS you can't stand the confrontation and the tears. That's why she does it. She was once very ill and I suspect her alcoholic manipulations are still present even though she isn't drinking anymore.

Just like that blanket you said she wrapped herself up in on that plane - you're mother has wrapped herself NOW up in an emotional blanket - one of control and manipulation and it comforts her.

I would REALLY find some profession help in your area.

All I can you about what I would do is the next time a relatively insignificant problem comes up and she starts the emotional tantrums, make sure she understands that you are unyielding to her rages, kiss her on the cheek and say, "Thanks for understanding my point of view, mother. I got to go. I'll talk to you later." Then leave her presence - unbending on the issue.

You will HAVE to do this with very simple issues to begin with and work up to the harder ones and staying longer in her presence each time - showing NO sympathy to her emotional manipulation and showing her love.

Just like a mother who holds a whiny baby who isn't getting his way and pats him and rocks him, yet does not give in to his screaming. It's not easy, but the baby eventually settles down.

It's a process you will have to start simply with almost insignificant issues and work your way up.

You are in my prayers.

thisnumbersdisconnected · Feb 10, 2014

Scarlett O. said: ↑

My dear, your mother is still an alcoholic. She may not have had a drink in a long time, but true alcoholics and other addicts still struggle in some areas the rest of their lives - even though they may be recovered from using.
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Actually Scarlett, we've found over the years of research that there are degrees of dependence/addiction, and those who have been primarily emotionally dependent -- what has been called "self-medicating" by some, including me -- due to some stressor, such as PTSD, grief, poor self-image due to failure or embarrassment, may not be debilitated by the substance's hold on them for their entire lives. We don't encourage people to "experiment" because we can't really know who is who. But I'm just one example in which I very nearly lost a military career over alcohol, who was "self-medicating" because of unadmitted and undiagnosed PTSD.

It was 25 years between drinks, but I found I could -- and do -- drink normally now. A glass of wine is a glass of wine, without fear of it becoming six glasses of wine, a lost weekend, or a blackout. With me, disordered gambling, for which I am dual-diagnosed, is a completely different story. I don't dare stand by the lottery display at QuikTrip, such is the potential for temptation.

We don't know, obviously, what circumstance blackstarling's mother was in or the "why" of her drinking, so this is not an effort to correct your advise, just an effort to assure that accurate information is "out there." Thanks. :thumbsup:

Scarlett O. said: ↑

Maybe it's not with the actually substance, but the offshoot behaviors.
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Yes, the "triggers." Good succinct statement, because those can be indicators of what type of problem a drinker or drug abuser, or even gambler or pornography user, may have. If they continue beyond the active addiction unchecked, then the abuse of the substance, or a replacement substance or activity, will likely rear its head sometime in the future, but even these aren't always reliable indicators.

Scarlett O. said: ↑

Did you know that it's common for alcoholics and even recovering/recovered ones to be manipulative, full of self-pity, blaming, controlling, and argumentative? They sometimes struggle here.

I mean we ALL do, but can you imagine how someone who is a current or former addict struggles even more?

Those are some common traits of a LOT of addicts - reformed or not.
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Again, good insight and spot on, with the proviso that some people exhibit these traits without any history of active addiction, and may never become abusive of any substance or behavior. Nonetheless, they are a pattern that indicates underlying issues that should be addressed.

Scarlett O. said: ↑

I would find some professional help such as Al-Anon (for family members of users) to help you identify what's common to alcoholic and recovering/recovered alcoholic mothers of adult children. They could really help you.

There's got to one in your area.
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Excellent advise yet again. :thumbsup:

Scarlett O. said: ↑

This is classic manipulation. And she is continuing because it's working.

Let me tell you something about change - of ANY kind. It's painful.

Here is who you need to change first - yourself. You need to work on your response system to your mother.

She KNOWS you can't stand the confrontation and the tears. That's why she does it. She was once very ill and I suspect her alcoholic manipulations are still present even though she isn't drinking anymore.

Just like that blanket you said she wrapped herself up in on that plane - you're mother has wrapped herself NOW up in an emotional blanket - one of control and manipulation and it comforts her.

I would REALLY find some profession help in your area.

All I can you about what I would do is the next time a relatively insignificant problem comes up and she starts the emotional tantrums, make sure she understands that you are unyielding to her rages, kiss her on the cheek and say, "Thanks for understanding my point of view, mother. I got to go. I'll talk to you later." Then leave her presence - unbending on the issue.

You will HAVE to do this with very simple issues to begin with and work up to the harder ones and staying longer in her presence each time - showing NO sympathy to her emotional manipulation and showing her love.

Just like a mother who holds a whiny baby who isn't getting his way and pats him and rocks him, yet does not give in to his screaming. It's not easy, but the baby eventually settles down.

It's a process you will have to start simply with almost insignificant issues and work your way up.

You are in my prayers.
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OK, I can leave now. Everything that needs to be said along this line of thought has already been said. :applause:

Scarlett O. · Feb 10, 2014

thisnumbersdisconnected said: ↑

Actually Scarlett, we've found over the years of research that there are degrees of dependence/addiction, and those who have been primarily emotionally dependent -- what has been called "self-medicating" by some, including me -- due to some stressor, such as PTSD, grief, poor self-image due to failure or embarrassment, may not be debilitated by the substance's hold on them for their entire lives. We don't encourage people to "experiment" because we can't really know who is who. But I'm just one example in which I very nearly lost a military career over alcohol, who was "self-medicating" because of unadmitted and undiagnosed PTSD.

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Thanks for you valuable input, TND.

OldRegular · Feb 10, 2014

blackstarling said: ↑

My mother recently told me that she would take care of some generally cosmetic fixes on my car. (My passenger door was bent pretty bad and wouldn't open and there was rust on the car.) I didn't plan to do anything about it. I plan to replace the car in the next couple years, I don't have kids to take places, and when my husband and I go someplace together we have always taken his truck. So having an operating passenger door didn't mean much to me.

Mom said that she had a friend who does body work that owes her some favors and that she would have him fix the door for me. I told her that we absolutely couldn't afford it, it was a frivolous and unnecessary fix, but she insisted she would take care of it.

When arranging to pick the car up after it had been worked on I told my mom that the man had asked that we bring cash to pay him. She asked how much cash I had on me. I thought it was because she didn't want to have to stop at an ATM before going to meet the mechanic. When we arrived I found out that he had not only fixed the door, he had completely filled and smoothed the dents on the door, sanded down all the rust on the car, painted it, and cleaned the interior. Mom asked me to pay him $500 and said she would pay him whatever was left. I found out shortly thereafter that this wasn't a $500 that she would be returning to me.

When we were alone I told her that if I had known I would be paying that I wouldn't have agreed to any of the services and that we couldn't afford the $500. It was money slated to go to bills in collections. She said that she was paying him much more than $500 and that it was a very costly service. If I had known she was going to invest that much herself, I also would have not allowed the services regardless of whether she could afford it. I reminded her that she had told me she would take care of the cost and told her that my husband and I were very unprepared to take on such a loss. She seemed a little remorseful for her decisions when she found out that we had bills in collections, but that was about it. She didn't say she'd give the money back, and I don't expect she will. In order to honor her, I feel that I shouldn't push any more than I have. I explained that she misled me which caused our money crisis to get that much deeper. She had all the facts. If she wanted to pay me back, or plan to do so in the future, she has those choices, but made no mention of wanting to make them.

EDIT: It's worth noting that I paid the $500 out of $1000 that my mom had given me as a gift because she knew that we were having financial difficulty. So the money was readily available to spend, we had simply planned to spend it on something more important.

My husband essentially wants me to demand the money back from her if that's what it takes. He says that it's my Biblical duty to obey him and that by not doing so, I'm disobeying God. My only answer to that was that it's a commandment to honor my parents and that trumps anything else. I can't force her to do anything no matter how I approach her. I've already presented my case to her. What more can I do without straining my relationship with her?

He doesn't like how much influence my mom has on me, and is often very disrespectful in the way he talks about her when it's just the two of us in private. He often says that I should react to her in disrespectful ways when she takes advantage of me. She does take advantage of me from time to time, and it can get very frustrating, but I next-to-never lose my cool and say or do something disrespectful. Nothing she does is hurtful, it's often just a strain on my resources, or our family resources - most often it's time that she takes. She'll do things like ask if I'll go to the grocery store with her in the morning, but that trips turns into hitting every garage sale on the way home then going to get something to eat and stopping at a friends house and I get home five hours later. It's frustrating to me, but it's my mom, I don't say anything. However it infuriates my husband. He says that even though she's not putting him out, he hates that she so nonchalantly disregards what I want.

Should I try to coerce my mom into returning the money because my husband told me to? Should I consider this type of behavior dishonorable to her or not? If it's not an issue of honoring her then I certainly should do what my husband asks of me if it doesn't otherwise contradict scripture right? (As a side question, what am I supposed to do if something my husband tells me to do DOES contradict scripture??)

Since I've already typed this much, I might as well also note that my husband is always upset that I don't defer to his judgement. He's not the spiritual head of our household that he's supposed to be. He knows very little about the Bible. He says that he wouldn't go to church if it wasn't for me. At this point I think we may be unevenly yoked and I'm concerned for his salvation. But I don't know if that changes whether or not I'm supposed to do ask he says because he's still my husband.
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I would say that when your husband loves you as Jesus Christ loves the Church he will not create unnecessary conflict between you and your mother! I would also note two passages of Scripture:

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Ephesians 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

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