Chosen in Him

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Van, Jan 5, 2014.

  1. Van

    Van
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    Some folks explain being chosen in Him as meaning we were chosen as specific foreseen individuals in anticipation of the salvation that would be available “in Him.” This seems to me to be an unnatural reading of the text. Rather the phrase “in Him” seems to me to describe how we were chosen. “We were chosen in Him” meaning He was chosen and in some manner we were seen as affiliated with Him and therefore in choosing Him we were chosen as a consequence. Therefore the “we” need not refer to specific individuals, but only corporately to believers in Christ that would subsequently be redeemed individually.

    Our options:

    1) We were chosen individually to be in Him. Problem one, to be is not in the text so this interpretation relies on adding to the text to make it say something other than what it says. Problem two, how could we be chosen individually before we were created. Again, by adding "as foreseen individuals" this problem can be dodged, but that puts us back to adding to the text to make it say what it does not say.

    2) Christ was chosen before the foundation of the world to be the Redeemer, because He was known as the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20. Therefore when the Redeemer was chosen, the target group of God's redemption plan was chosen corporately, thus chosen in Him. Therefore when we are placed in Him (during our lifetime) we receive God's purpose and grace from all eternity.
     
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    The very nature of salvation is individual and personal. There is no corporate salvation. Moreover, the essence of personal/individual salvation is expressed by 2 Cor. 5:21 so that Christ takes our position and we take Christ's position before the Law of God. He satisfies all the demands of the Law against us and we obtain all the benefits that His sinless life obtains.

    This is what it means to be "in him" before the foundation of the world as God purposed that our salvation would be obtained FOR US by Christ satisfying all the demands of the law IN OUR PLACE and we IN HIS PLACE. Thus we are "chosen IN HIM" before the world began as there is NO SALVATION OUTSIDE OF HIM. We are chosen in him personally and individually "to salvation" that is obtained REPRESENTATIVELY for us IN HIS OWN PERSON. There is no salvation for anyone OUTSIDE of HIS OWN PERSON.
     
  3. Skandelon

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    What does 'first to the Jew and then to the Gentile' mean to you?

    What does the Jew being 'cut off' while the Gentiles are being 'grafted in,' mean to you?

    These are corporate or national statements about God's elective purposes. It does NOT mean individuals aren't in view, because clearly they are, but it does reveal the INTENT of the author as being inclusive of the individuals who make up this bodies, not exclusive of those individuals, as Calvinism asserts.
     
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    It means NOTHING in regard to either the nature or application of INDIVIDUAL salvation but only the ORDER in the Great Commission "Jerusalem, judea, Sammaria....uttermost part of the earth.


    It means NOTHING in regard to individual salvation because IN CONTEXT salvation of the Jews in all generations is the "remnant" and it is ELECTION THAT OBTAINED actual individual salvation in every generation. (Rom. 11:1-7).




    No it is not! These are only TEMPORAL ETHNIC FRAMEWORKS within which God has chosen to manifest his VISIBLE administrative kingdom through which he calls out the elect remnant from within ethnic Israel and then non-ethnic people of the earth. If these were CORPORATE SAVLATION statements then such could be lost, then saved, then lost and resaved.

    It does NOT mean individuals aren't in view, because clearly they are, but it does reveal the INTENT of the author as being inclusive of the individuals who make up this bodies, not exclusive of those individuals, as Calvinism asserts.[/QUOTE]
     
  5. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    Scripture indicates it is more than a mere geographical order...

    Prior to Paul's conversion, and Peter's white sheet dream the gospel was only going to the Jewish world. The apostles didn't even know it was a message meant for all mankind until latter in the process.

    Paul expounds on the fact that the gospel first goes to Israel in Romans 10:

    How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world." 19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding." 20 And Isaiah boldly says, "I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me." 21 But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."​
     
  6. Van

    Van
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    The very nature of individual election for salvation is individual and personal. But corporate election as the target group of God's redemption plan would be corporate and impersonal. This is the election of Ephesians 1:4.

    2 Cor. 5:21 says God made Christ to be a sin offering for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. Therefore, this refers to our individual and personal election through sanctification by the Spirit - the Spirit baptizes us individually into Christ - and is therefore non-germane to the OP.

    The only election where we are "chosen in Him" is the election before the foundation of the world, before creation, and this election must be corporate, because we are chosen individually through faith in the truth, after we have lived without mercy during our lifetime. It is a lock.
     

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