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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jerome, Mar 21, 2008.
For whom does the Son intercede with the Father?
I believe the answer that you're looking for is in Romans 8:33-34.
US The born again.
1Jo 2:1 ¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Was Jesus referring to the born again in Luke 23:34?
"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."
Jerome wrote ---- Was Jesus referring to the born again in Luke 23:34?
Lu 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
I believe he was refering to the roman soldiers, and those that mocked him.
And of course the thief.
Not those that accused him of casting out demons by the power of beelzeebub, they would never be forgiven,they comitted the unpardonable
thats the short answer.
Rex, they were still able to repent. The unpardonable sin becomes unpardonable when one dies. Some of those very ones who were saying Jesus came from Satan before the bell tolled for them may have accepted Jesus as Savior and denounced their former opposition to them.
Example: As a pastor I have personally witnessed people under the conviction of the Holy Spirit. I've seen the anguished looks, the pew gripping, and the sweat. I've also witnessed anger on some faces. The Holy Spirit was dealing with hearts. And yet, some of these folks walked out the door rejecting the work of the Holy Spirit. They refused to repent. They refused to relent. They, in essence, blasphemed the Holy Spirit. And, according to your logic, they are now hell bound. Here's the problem. Some of them came back, and in due time, did repent and were saved. No longer did they reject the Holy Spirit. But, you are saying that they can't be saved. You are saying that Jesus can no longer intercede on their behalf.
This has always been an intriguing concept for me. The scripture plainly says that Christ is the advocate with the Father. He clearly prayed for believers in the John 17.
In my limited human understanding, I don't see the need for the Lord Jesus to be an advocate for us. It's not as if God is ready to bust us good and Jesus talks him out of it. It's not as if the Father says to the Son, "hey, you see Tom down there. He's been a bad boy lately. So whaddaya think? Should I just go ahead and fry him?" And the Son says, "No, Father, remember, I took that punishment on the cross."
"Oh, okay, now I see the blood. Thanks, Son."
I guess what I'm getting at is that Jesus secured my salvation on the Cross. The Father knows that and doesn't need to be reminded of it. In fact, in the mind of God, my salvation was secured from the foundation of the world. Furher, Jesus said he and the Father were one, so they were never at odds with each other.
So, my questions are, just how does the Son advocate for us with the Father? Why does he need to? Has the Son ever asked anything on our behalf that the Father refused him?
I'm looking forward to your thoughts on this.
Release the hounds!
Hey, Tom --- He intercedes for us DAILY. Do you sin daily? Does sin have earthly consequences? Do you think God might have mercy if we pray for ourselves or for others regarding sin?
Read Isa 59:16, Tom.
The devil is the one that points the finger .Jesus intercedes " Father he is one of mine he is washed in the blood."
Re 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
I believe the unpardonable sin was only able to be comitted while Jesus was on earth by those that claimed Jesus was casting out devils by beelzebub.
Jesus said in this world nor the world to come.
Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.
It can't be speaking about your case because they were able to be forgiven.
But you have the same effect today when someone refuses to trust Christ
up to the time of their death and dies in their sin.
Further to last post
Keith Piper in Answers book put it more clearly
Question: What does Matthew 12:22-32 really teach?
Answer: Jesus had just healed a man possessed with a devil causing blindness and dumbness. The obvious meaning of this miracle was that Jesus was the Messiah. The Pharisees, however, not wanting to believe in Jesus, attributed His miracles done by the Holy Spirit to Satan.
This blasphemy against the Holy Spirit can only be committed when one observes Christ physically on earth doing miracles. Since Christ is not physically on earth today, it is impossible to commit this sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, that is, the sin of attributing the works of Christ to Satan.
Note: This sin was an historical event.
Those Pharisees died in their sin, not all Pharisees were involved some believed he was sent from God Nicodemis etc.
Here is a bit of a background to the verses.
There were three miracles the rulers believed only Messiah could perform
!. Heal a leper
2. Heal a person born blind.
3. Heal a devil possed person that was dumb.
This was one of those miracles and they knew he must be the Messiah but they did not want to lose their power to him. So they tried to turn the people against Jesus,
by saying he was from satan.
Leaving aside whom Christ does not intercede for, whom does Christ intercede for?
As He was about to be crucified, He said, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."
Was He speaking only of those soldiers/mockers/thieves who were elect/would be born again?
Oh, sky, I agree with you. He does intercede for us daily. I do sin daily. I believe this with all my heart. I'm just admitting that in my limited understanding, I dont see why he has to.
The interceding goes beyond just salvation (as Skypair posted about 'sinning daily' as a believer).
If God is truly holy and righteous (which He infactically is) then even when his children do wrong/sin they must be held accountable for it like everyone else. However, unlike everyone we have a devoted advocate with the Father. So yes, every time we sin God in His holiness must punish sin and Christ intercedes on our behalf. Yet I don't think it is in the same manner in which we think of the Court Room or Jesus having to go to God and say such and such each time. It is ( IMO) to the fact everytime we sin and rouse the Holiness (holy anger) of God against us, He at the same time, sees the shed blood of Christ that mediated our pardon. Therefore each time He sees the applied blood it mediates after that manner before Him and so Christ who is in us is mediating each instance through His own blood. IOW - I believe the mediation isn't so much Christ (by Himself) standing before the Father speaking per sey but since all things are set before God it is Christ in us which stands before the Father speaking (so to speak) by the blood that has been applied to us.
We must remember that this is done so 'in time' as we sin, even though God knows before hand all that will be done, it still must be appeased at the moment of the event take place. Thus His judgment becomes chastening in and of Love that His grace might more abound toward us who believe. Therefore Christ is before the Father constantly, not because what he did was insuffient for all time but that His creation is bound in time and thus must be dealt with in realation to time. It is for this reason He is long suffering toward usward.. due to His creation being bound to time He waits for all things to be accomplished within the time that He set for all things.
Not sure what you are asking. Try this for an answer
It was for those on that day that put him on the cross.
He did not give a general forgiveness for future generations of anyone.
You have to trust him has your Saviour to recieve forgiveness.
Although he asked His Father to forgive those that killed him, they would still have to trust him as Saviour to have eternal life and forgiveness of
all their other sins.
Except those that comitted the unpardonable sin, I'm sure they were there to gloat.
Anyway thats the way I see it. I have been known to be wrong.
Allan, thanks. This is helpful. I'm not quite there in my understanding, but your comments are food for thought.
In part I would say because it "greives" or "quenches" the Sprit when we sin and don't look for intercession by either confessing or repenting. In that state we are out of touch with the Spirit and more accessible to the devil.
Simply, Christ interecedes for His elect only.
"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. " John 17:9
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;" John 17:20
Christ prays/interceds to the Father for those whom the Father has given to Christ, believers only.
So when Jesus said, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do," what He really meant to say was "Father, forgive the elect only; for they know not what they do."
Am I understanding this right?
Based on how I understand the Greek text, he was praying for those involved in the crucifying of Him, for what they "are doing" to Him. Then yes, He is praying, not for the world, but those who will believe in Him through their word. We can call to mind Peter's sermon where 3000 were converted a short while later.