Christ Jesus vs. Jesus Christ

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by KeithS, Jun 13, 2008.

  1. KeithS

    KeithS
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    Is there any significance to Paul's use of the phrase "Christ Jesus" versus his use of the phrase "Jesus Christ" in 1 Timothy (and perhaps elsewhere)?

    The discussion came up in a study on 1 Timothy and I am curious as to the input any scholars can provide. For what it is worth, with limited resources available to me at the moment it looks like most occurences (perhaps all?) in 1 Timothy in Greek read "Christ Jesus". So why the change in English (KJV - and no, this is not a KJV discussion, I simply have not had opportunity to check other versions for their readings)?

    Any thoughts?
     
  2. Danger Dog

    Danger Dog
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    No, SKeith.
     
  3. dan e.

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    That's funny. :laugh:
     
  4. KeithS

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    I thought so too, but it highlights my question.

    Why does Paul throughout his epistles sometimes use Chirst Jesus and sometimes use Jesus Christ?

    For instance, we often read of "Christ Jesus our Lord" or even of "Jesus Christ our Lord" or even "our Lord Jesus Christ", but rarely or never "our Lord Christ Jesus". Why?

    So the consensus, by lack of response, is that Paul's use of language was arbitrary rather than specific. So much for verbal, plenary inspiration.
     
  5. exscentric

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    "So the consensus, by lack of response, is that Paul's use of language was arbitrary rather than specific."

    In two some hours you could have done a good word study on the subject and had your answer rather than base your thinking on the lack of posts on an internet bulletin board :laugh: Now that is the way to base your faith!

    "So much for verbal, plenary inspiration." Been trying to get rid of that pesky doctrine for years and all you have to do is declare it "out." Neato :thumbs:
     
  6. StefanM

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    I think it is likely that he was changing the order for stylistic variation.
     
  7. KeithS

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    Hmm...I already planned on studing it out in a little more depth this weekend when I have better opportunity and resources, although I think this subject will require more then two hours of study to really discern properly. I also admit that I am really looking for a quick fix from someone more learned that may have studied the subject before me. I believe I mentioned that at the moment I have limited resources available to me.

    So, I apologize if my comments appeared overly critical to you. I tend to be sarcastic at times and need to work on it. I happen to lurk more than post on the board and there are a number of folks I respect highly for their learning, others for their faith, and still others for their zeal.

    So let me try again, can you enlighten me as to your thoughts on the subject?
     
  8. exscentric

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    " So let me try again, can you enlighten me as to your thoughts on the subject? [​IMG]"

    Nope, haven't done the word study myself :laugh: Don't mind me I was just havin fun :thumbs:
     
  9. KeithS

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    Thanks for the response and I considered this, but in my very brief look at the phrase I guess I was expecting more consistency in Paul's use.

    I guess there are really two issues: the Greek phrase and the English phrase. Paul's use in Greek seems to vary, however the English sometimes tends to transposes the Greek phrase which adds to the problem. To what purpose? This would seem more a stylistic use than Paul's usage in Greek. I tend to respect the KJV translators for their use of such stylistic choices. Many times they seemed to capture both the essence and the mood of the text while remaining true to the Greek.

    Anyway, there may indeed be no other answer than variation.
     
  10. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
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    Sometimes I call my wife Mrs PJ (I use our last name of course) other times I call her Dr PJ sometimes I call her Dr Mrs PJ...just to get her riled up...

    Paul, and the other NT writers, usually don't have an agenda in switching the names. Particularly in Roman culture switching up names is common. :)
     
  11. Salty

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    According to "Bible Doctrines That Matter" Mark G. Cambrion (the author) in chapter 2 (Christology) explains the names of Christ.

    Pg 66:

    (E) JESUS CHRIST
    This is another title of the Lord, which is the combination of his personal name (Jesus) with his official title (Christ). the emphasis is on the first word - Jesus, what He was to what He is. That is, Jesus, who once humbled Himself, is now exalted

    (F) CHRIST JESUS
    The emphasis is on the first word here also - Christ, which means he who was exalted, was once humbled; (Phil 2:5-8)

    (G.) THE LORD JESUS CHRIST
    THIS IS THE LORD'S FULLEST TITLE (EPH 1:3)

    On page 60: Jesus is found before His death...while Christ is found after.
    Jesus is the personal name of the Lord.


    BDTH is an excellent book.
    Dr Cambron served fro many years as Dean of Tenessee Temple Schools.
     
  12. Ed Edwards

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    Short answer: NO!

    Long answer:
    In the early 4th Century (306-318) there was 4-6 serious claimants to the throne of the Roman Empire at all time. Espeically the one in the province of Asia (now Turkey) was prone to let his follows abuse Christians. Finally Constantine became the sole Emperor. Constantine supported the Christians. It was a big mistake when the Church in the Roman Empire joined the state - the worse elemets of both were combined leading to a 800-years long 'dark ages'.

    Claimants to the thrones would list their petigrees. Mayabe like this:

    Emperor Ed, Ceasaer- 18 times, Augustus - 11 times, Neron - 4 times etc.

    In the days before that, when the New Testament was written, the Pedigree followed the name and the Title preceeded the Names. Remember that Julius Ceasaer was the first ruler (King of Kings or 'Emperor') of the Roman Empire (which ate up the Roman Republic).
     
  13. canadyjd

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    I will hazard a guess that if you look at the context in which they were written, that Paul (and others) may have wanted to emphasize His work as "Christ" or "Messiah" when mentioning it first.

    They may have wanted to emphasize His humanity and/or suffering when mentioning "Jesus" first.

    Just something to look for. I hope that helps.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  14. Ed Edwards

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    Many unchurched think that "Jesus Christ" is the man's name. In fact, the more profane thing His name is "Jesus H. Christ".

    BTW, these unchurched think that "Jesus Christ" is a curse word almost as bad as 'repent', and 'Hell'.
     
  15. Deacon

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    If you've ever seriously studied theology, you've probably developed a shorthand for the names of God.

    Abbreviating holy Spirit as HS is common.
    This might seem profane to some but even in the earliest Greek manuscripts the names of God were abbreviated.

    These short-hand versions of the names are called "Nomina sacra" (or "Sacred Names").

    This Wikipedia >>LINK<< shows a few.

    One of the more common variations among early hand-written manuscripts is a changing of the order of the names.

    These variations can even be seen among the different versions we have today.

    knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
    Galatians 2:16 AV 1873

    nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
    Galatians 2:16 NASB95


    There are many more examples (c.f. 1 Corinthians 1:3-4; Phil. 1:6).

    Realizing that a big part of studying Scripture in early times consisted of memorization (computers were quite rare in those days but memory was plentiful), a mixing of the order of the names is understandable.

    And if you look closely in the Wikipedia artilce, the abbriviations are so very similar and easy to mix up.

    This might take a while to load for some but here is a picture of a papyrii page from Galatians 2:9-21 in P46 [LINK].
    (Hit "full Image" and play with the size to make it comfortably readable after you download the picture).

    You'll see the abbrivations on the 13th and 14th lines.

    Work through it and compare it to the Wikipedia article to see what it says and compare it to the different versions you have.

    Rob
     
    #15 Deacon, Jun 13, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2008
  16. tinytim

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    Something I read along time ago, but never took the effort to check up on...


    I read that it was only the Devils that addressed Christ as , "Jesus"...
    Without the title Christ.

    Does anyone know if this is true...
    Everywhere else, he was called "Lord, Master, Teacher, Christ"
     
  17. Deacon

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    That was interesting Tim,

    The name Jesus is very common but using the name of Jesus when addressing him is not so common.

    And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
    Matthew 28:5 AV 1873

    Just in Matthew, see: 1:21, 25; 21:11; 26:69, 71; 27:17, 22, 37

    Rob
     
  18. David Lamb

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    I think it comes down to what "Christ" actually means - "Anointed One", "The Messiah". "Christ" is not His surname, like the "Doe" in "John Doe". So, "Jesus the Messiah" or "The Messiah, Jesus"? "Jesus the Anointed One", "The Anointed One, Jesus"? Perhaps someone who knows New Testament Greek could tell us if the order of words in that language affects the meaning.
     
  19. KeithS

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    Hey guys - thanks for the input. I appreciate all the comments as I look into this further.

    Thanks again.
     

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